Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Bad RWY at JFK again

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Bad RWY at JFK again

Old 23rd Jun 2010, 06:50
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Crosswind landing techniques

Oh come guys! We are meant to be professionals

You are flying a multimillion $ piece of tin full of people, you have a responsibility to the pax, company and yourself to be fully conversant with ALL the recommend techniques of how to do a xwind landing upto and including the limit.

If you are not you should get out of the flight deck and take up gardening.


Both Airbus and B777 are fly by wire not cable therefore there is no control input lag, as a result in my experience the 777 is the best and most responsive of any commercial aircraft in a crosswind I have ever flown.

Applying crossed controls to counter a rudder input is not unstabilising an approach, its Effect of Controls 1 for heavens sake!

Let remember we are meant to be pilots not just button pushers.

rant over and the soap box is back in the cupboard!
alwayzinit is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2010, 07:04
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,831
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Applying crossed controls to counter a rudder input is not unstabilising an approach, its Effect of Controls 1 for heavens sake!
I couldn't agree more... Just highlighting the FCOM for the subject of this thread
White Knight is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2010, 07:40
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Applying crossed controls to counter a rudder input is not unstabilising an approach, its Effect of Controls 1 for heavens sake!
Yup...and been this way since the 707 days.
Nothing new, perfectly acceptable.
411A is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2010, 08:23
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
For ULH pilots who get only three or four landings a month, (most of them not crosswind), is that ego or common sense talking?
Fubaar is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2010, 09:57
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Ego Vs Professional Responsibility

Well speaking for myself, the flight deck of a wide body aircraft (or any other vehicle for that matter) is THE ONE place where ego has absolutely no place.

My post stated that you should, as a matter of professional responsibility, be fully conversant with all the recommended techniques and use the most appropriate one depending on the circumstances in which you find yourself.

As to ULR flying and maintaining competence/proficiency. In Ek we do 1 or 2 a month so it should not be a problem. However, I agree that if you do nothing but ULR stuff maintaining proficiency is not easy hence being familiar with all the various techniques, or tell someone and get into the sim, or be a grown up and bid, if possible, for less ULR flights thus taking responsibility for your own competence.

It is not brain surgery after all.
alwayzinit is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2010, 10:06
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: london
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Did any other aircraft have the same problem landing that day?.
sunbird123 is offline  
Old 23rd Jun 2010, 12:23
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SE England
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
All autoland aircraft would require the localizer antennas to be placed on the belly just forward of the centerline close to the gear. All Boeings are like this because on all autoland sim checks we get one centerline call because you are rolling out off centerline. If the antenna was in the nose you would never be on centerline on a crosswind landing. We had to identify all antennas on the aircraft on 9 month checks.
Where is just forward of the centerline?
It's under the radome with the GS antenna. (On the 737) and most others I'd hazard a guess.
Desk Jockey is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2010, 01:38
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
18 kt crosswind. Big deal.

Left crosswind. They took out the left runway lights. No 'downwind' drfit issue.

Crosswind landing technique isn't important if you don't land near the centerline.

Last edited by misd-agin; 24th Jun 2010 at 01:39. Reason: additional comment
misd-agin is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2010, 12:48
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In a far better place
Posts: 2,480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
While RWYs 31 are mor suitable, this flight is landing on 04, getting the full xwinds and takes out some lights...

Why don't they get the apropriate RWY for landing?
Or better, why could the crew not muster the skills and proficiency required to tackle a crosswind landing?
captjns is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2010, 12:57
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: London
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
As a light piston single and occasional light twin driver, I always try to land with the upwind wheel first, wing low and nose pointing straight down the runway - ie no crab and no drift and hence no sideloading on the landing gear.

Videos of big jets landing with a crab/drift always surprise me as the forces that seem to be imposed on the landing gear look huge/potentially damaging.

Are big jets landed this way because a single gear cannot handle all of the weight on landing or is there a risk of one of the engine pods striking the ground or some other reason?

Interested to know.
Heliplane is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2010, 14:12
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Age: 83
Posts: 3,788
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Engine pods striking the ground is a big problem on such aircraft as the 747. This makes the wing-down technique quite tricky.

On the other hand, the DC-10 was a brilliant wing-down aeroplane. If you look at the geometry, you would never be able to scrape a pod (you would always get the wingtip first).
JW411 is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2010, 19:13
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: CYUL
Posts: 879
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Not all aircraft manufacturers allow for the "crabbed landing technique" because of the side loads imposed on the landing gear.
Jet Jockey A4 is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2010, 19:25
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Age: 83
Posts: 3,788
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Now that is a fascinating statement.

Can you tell us more please?
JW411 is offline  
Old 24th Jun 2010, 19:43
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: europe
Posts: 142
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Well MD11 would be one type Iīm absolutely sure of (and have experienced) that hates crabby landings!

And the Scarebus is not meant to be landed without decrabbing to a certain extent either as quoted from the OM-B before.

Somebody just messed up the landing during the EY-incident - nothing more, nothing less. The Xwind certainly sound do-able on the size of an A345.

But cīmon - AUH-JFK! - is near the red line.

There, but for the grace of God...
wonderbusdriver is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2010, 04:37
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Seoul/Gold Coast.....
Posts: 383
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Agree with WILEY, I'm also a 773 driver, The Chinese Landing "One wing low" is the way to go!!
zlin77 is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2010, 05:43
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Dubai,UAE
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Have to agree White Knight

Had several max wind landings in AKL on the 345, looks a little hairy lining up on the edge lights. I cheat a little and begin the de-crab just prior to the flare with slower rudder inputs, needs a little more lateral attention but works well and the aircraft is in the level attitude on touchdown.

Either way immediatly prior to or in the flare hasn't made a huge difference and neither have strong gusts during the flare, just need to be ready with control inputs if needed.

This isn't rocket science, what works for one may type not necesarily work for another.

Stay safe

Dooner
dooner is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2010, 07:49
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,451
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Before the 31 knot limit for the crabbed technique came in, I've landed a 772 in a 40 kt crosswind at LHR using the crossed control technique - and when I was very, very new on type. (It was my initial check flight after my conversion.)

The aeroplane went on as if on a rail (thanks more to Mr Boeing's designers than anything I did, I suspect), and we certainly didn't get a pod scrape. As I mentioned in my earlier post, it's how the autopilot does it and it maintains a totally stable attitude (and perhaps just as important, a stable track) right to touchdown.

Thanks to the track line in the compass at the bottom of the PFD, you can even finesse the amount of rudder required to get the aircraft tracking exactly on runway heading, so it doesn't matter if you don't get the flare/touchdown absolutely nailed - the aircraft isn't going through (what can be a quite large) gyration as you kick it straight at the last minute and therefore, isn't heading off for the side of the runway at a rapid rate of knots if you float a little longer than is ideal.

777 drivers, next time you do a sim. ride, ask the instructor to wind in a 30kt (or more) crosswind and take a look at how the autopilot handles the final 300 or 400 feet. Then try manually flying an approach and use the same technique as the autopilot. I believe you'll become a convert.

The only reason I can see for someone using the 'kick it straight in the flare' technique in a 777 is ego, because you think you're skilled enough to do it. Like those who lambasted me in posts above, you quite possibly are - but too many FO's (and Captains on multi crew ULR flights) I've seen try it aren't so skilled and turn what could be a no brainer, non event crosswind landing into something approaching those movie clips we've all seen on YouTube.
Wiley is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2010, 20:17
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Sydney
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If I remember correctly, Airbus does not recommend x-controls. As per the FCTM
"crabbed approach wings level" should be the technique used.

I have used both and Boeing a/c (never flown B777) respond well to x-control, Airbus not so much.

My two cents worth

Assy

Last edited by assymetric; 26th Jun 2010 at 07:48. Reason: Spelling
assymetric is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2010, 21:13
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: US
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Doing the cross control during a flare in a Boeing is quite intuitive. The Airbus I understand adds more bank holding the control off neutral so would be a relearning for a Boeing pilot. We always hold the aileron into the wind and the rudder keeps us straight. Kind of like all of the aircraft in the past 107 years.
p51guy is offline  
Old 25th Jun 2010, 22:54
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Canada
Posts: 134
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I agree with alwayzinit.. A 21 kt crosswind should not be an issue for any professional pilot in any larger aircraft. Period!! The title of this thread is very misleading as it really had nothing to do with JFK. Crosswind landings are a fact of life in our business no matter what type of plane you fly. Quit trying to blame everyone else. Unless there was a mechanical issue, these guys just simply screwed up. End of conversation. If you can't handle the airplane get the out of the cockpit!!
bcflyer is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.