Spirit Airlines Pilots walk out
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411A, didn't you say on an earlier post you are now management after going through the pilot ranks?
Spirit will probably change their management now. The pilots want it to be done ASAP. The new contract will not be renegotiated and you know it. Is one of the first things management training trains you is to lie and believe it is the truth?
Spirit is not going to fail because of the pilot contract. We all know that. The future economy could affect them like anybody else but this contract will have no effect on the outcome.
Good job Spirit, now hopefully every airline pilot sees the light at the end of the tunnel to get through the RLA process and go on strike to get the companies attention. It seems to be the only way to deal with them.
Spirit will probably change their management now. The pilots want it to be done ASAP. The new contract will not be renegotiated and you know it. Is one of the first things management training trains you is to lie and believe it is the truth?
Spirit is not going to fail because of the pilot contract. We all know that. The future economy could affect them like anybody else but this contract will have no effect on the outcome.
Good job Spirit, now hopefully every airline pilot sees the light at the end of the tunnel to get through the RLA process and go on strike to get the companies attention. It seems to be the only way to deal with them.
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Thread Starter
Interesting to see no mention of the circa 80,000 fare paying passengers whose flights were cancelled during all this. Whatever the rights and wrongs of this dispute you can bet your bottom dollar that few of those people or their friends and relatives will trouble Spirit with their future business. Plenty more fish in the sea?
Union Goon
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Two's in.
Unfortunately, what you say is not true.... The pax will come back in droves for a fare sale that is 5 cents cheaper than the next ticket. In the day and age of priceline, leisure carriers like Spirit compete strictly on price. Strikes happen, as long as everyone gets back to work and starts moving the people, 6 months from now it will be like it never happened. In many cases, those pax will be back in a hurry, once they saw what it cost to fly on AA/DELTA/Contintal, and they realize that the extra money didn't get em any extra worthwhile service...
There is no such thing a brand loyalty these days, with the exception of large business accounts, and spirit doesn't have the kind of market penetration to attract business accounts...
These days it doesn't matter how good your service is, you live and die by your priceline listing. Don't believe me? How's midwest express these days?
Cheers
Wino
Unfortunately, what you say is not true.... The pax will come back in droves for a fare sale that is 5 cents cheaper than the next ticket. In the day and age of priceline, leisure carriers like Spirit compete strictly on price. Strikes happen, as long as everyone gets back to work and starts moving the people, 6 months from now it will be like it never happened. In many cases, those pax will be back in a hurry, once they saw what it cost to fly on AA/DELTA/Contintal, and they realize that the extra money didn't get em any extra worthwhile service...
There is no such thing a brand loyalty these days, with the exception of large business accounts, and spirit doesn't have the kind of market penetration to attract business accounts...
These days it doesn't matter how good your service is, you live and die by your priceline listing. Don't believe me? How's midwest express these days?
Cheers
Wino
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passengers and strikes
way back in 1975, when I was a soldier in the US Army, I was planning my Christmas Leave in October. It was common knowledge that United Pilots were planning a strike around Christmas.
So, I had to make my reservations on Piedmont to IAD from Norfolk, and from IAD to Phoenix on TWA continuing to SFO on TWA.
I was the only guy who got home for Christmas that year.
the buyer must beware...those passengers interviewed on TV seemed like NON SAVY travelers.
Spirit Union Pilots, did you issue a press release of possible strike? I'll bet you did!
way back in 1975, when I was a soldier in the US Army, I was planning my Christmas Leave in October. It was common knowledge that United Pilots were planning a strike around Christmas.
So, I had to make my reservations on Piedmont to IAD from Norfolk, and from IAD to Phoenix on TWA continuing to SFO on TWA.
I was the only guy who got home for Christmas that year.
the buyer must beware...those passengers interviewed on TV seemed like NON SAVY travelers.
Spirit Union Pilots, did you issue a press release of possible strike? I'll bet you did!
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First off yes, we warned passengers of a possible strike even to the point of placing billboards announcing the same at three of our major cities.
I have been pleasantly surprised and gratified by the vast outpouring of support from our flight attendants, other company employees as well as all the pilots of other airlines who walked our picket line with us. We cannot thank you all enough and I know that we will return the favour when you need us.
I have also been appalled at the breathtaking arrogance, stupidity, ignorance, and cowardice of you management suckups who criticised our painful decision to strike. To those dimwits I say this.
Believe it or not we are all at least as smart and sane as you so give us credit for having thought long and hard before we made the difficult decision to strike. There is not time enough to explain the shabby, degrading treatment that management calmly and deliberately administered to us over the last 3 years with the calculated goal of destroying our morale in order to impose a concessionary contract that would have reduced our wages and made us at will employees at a time when the company was making massive profits (over 100 million USD last year)and planning a major expansion.
To those who say we agreed to our terms and conditions and should abide by them forever consider this. Management threw that last contract away with their concessionary proposals. They did not agree to begin negotiating off our last contract until shortly before the strike deadline. That last contract was agreed upon at a time when our flying was vastly different than it is now. The compensation package was fair enough for day, domestic flying into secondary airports with comfortable turn times and one or two legs per day. It proved woefully inadaquate to compensate for 3 or 4 leg days with 30 minute turns operating at night, over water, on the back side of the clock into international caribbean, central, and south american destinations with the challenges of active volcanos, high altitude airports, language dificulties, inadaquate alternates and the support limitations of a bare bones carrier like spirit.
Do what you like with your own career but as far as your negative opinions on this great pilot group who took a brave and necessary stand for our careers, just shut your mouths and crawl back under your rocks. You disgust me.
I have been pleasantly surprised and gratified by the vast outpouring of support from our flight attendants, other company employees as well as all the pilots of other airlines who walked our picket line with us. We cannot thank you all enough and I know that we will return the favour when you need us.
I have also been appalled at the breathtaking arrogance, stupidity, ignorance, and cowardice of you management suckups who criticised our painful decision to strike. To those dimwits I say this.
Believe it or not we are all at least as smart and sane as you so give us credit for having thought long and hard before we made the difficult decision to strike. There is not time enough to explain the shabby, degrading treatment that management calmly and deliberately administered to us over the last 3 years with the calculated goal of destroying our morale in order to impose a concessionary contract that would have reduced our wages and made us at will employees at a time when the company was making massive profits (over 100 million USD last year)and planning a major expansion.
To those who say we agreed to our terms and conditions and should abide by them forever consider this. Management threw that last contract away with their concessionary proposals. They did not agree to begin negotiating off our last contract until shortly before the strike deadline. That last contract was agreed upon at a time when our flying was vastly different than it is now. The compensation package was fair enough for day, domestic flying into secondary airports with comfortable turn times and one or two legs per day. It proved woefully inadaquate to compensate for 3 or 4 leg days with 30 minute turns operating at night, over water, on the back side of the clock into international caribbean, central, and south american destinations with the challenges of active volcanos, high altitude airports, language dificulties, inadaquate alternates and the support limitations of a bare bones carrier like spirit.
Do what you like with your own career but as far as your negative opinions on this great pilot group who took a brave and necessary stand for our careers, just shut your mouths and crawl back under your rocks. You disgust me.
Last edited by Merlyn; 18th Jun 2010 at 03:22. Reason: clarity
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Merlyn
thanks for confirming that the pilots warned the passengers ( not self loading freight...I wish someone would drop that ).
Like I said in my post about getting home for Christmas...buyer/flyer beware.
While the circumstances are different, I remind everyone that the GERMANS warned everyone in New York with a LARGE AD in the Newspapers basically saying that the RMS Lusitania ( ship during World War 1) would be sunk by military action and not to board her.
YET over 1000 people boarded and sadly , died.
When a pilot group warns you of a strike, you better look for other methods of transportation.
thanks for confirming that the pilots warned the passengers ( not self loading freight...I wish someone would drop that ).
Like I said in my post about getting home for Christmas...buyer/flyer beware.
While the circumstances are different, I remind everyone that the GERMANS warned everyone in New York with a LARGE AD in the Newspapers basically saying that the RMS Lusitania ( ship during World War 1) would be sunk by military action and not to board her.
YET over 1000 people boarded and sadly , died.
When a pilot group warns you of a strike, you better look for other methods of transportation.
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It proved woefully inadaquate to compensate for 3 or 4 leg days with 30 minute turns operating at night, over water, on the back side of the clock into international caribbean, central, and south american destinations with the challenges of active volcanos, high altitude airports, language dificulties, inadaquate alternates and the support limitations of a bare bones carrier like spirit.
Now it's 'overworked' as well as 'underpaid.
So, now this extra pay will somehow make 'language difficulties'
somehow better?Oh yes, that extra pay and benefits...what are they, and how compared to the previous last company offer?
Or, as I suspect, all this bravado is so much ALPO horsepucky.
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Well for one thing. In the past contract you could be schedued to depart at 8:00PM and land at 8:00AM after a few legs.Then go and fly a trans con or a 7 hour red eye turn again at 8:00PM that same night. Over and over again. Also no more multi red eye legs. i.e.2200 departure LAX to ORD to FLL for a 1400 arrival . Just to go back out and fly that night at 2300. New contract this will not happen. This is a QOL issue that was needed.This is just one of many things fixed in the new contract. Oh yea and more pay$$. Sounds good to me.I won't ask any questions to any of you ALPA /Union pilot bashers out there. Because your opinion means NOTHING! This is a Spirit Pilots battle.
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It's about time that the FAA accepted REAL FLTsand imposed them, not the crap that is in the FARs now. Take a look you lot at UK CAA CAP371 and argue
Union Goon
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I agree with Merlin,
I have operated on both sides of the pond, under FAR's and CAP371...
What the FAA allows should be illegal. There is no rest in the US rest requirements... And oddly enough, sometimes you can fly a lot further with an unaugmented crew under the UK rules, so its not about just rest... With REAL rest can come real productivity...
Because the government refuses to mandate proper rest for pilots, unfortunately its up to the unions to obtain it.
Cheers
Wino
I have operated on both sides of the pond, under FAR's and CAP371...
What the FAA allows should be illegal. There is no rest in the US rest requirements... And oddly enough, sometimes you can fly a lot further with an unaugmented crew under the UK rules, so its not about just rest... With REAL rest can come real productivity...
Because the government refuses to mandate proper rest for pilots, unfortunately its up to the unions to obtain it.
Cheers
Wino
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411A, may I sugest you take your medication before posting?
Unless, of course, said pilots are afraid to post same....
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Spirit captains will cap at 185 per hr. I forget the FO pay but with signing agreement will do well this year. I think Spirit did well on getting pay for everybody. Good job guys.
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185 an hour...that's damn good...though just before 9/11, our contract would have a 737=300 captain at about 220 an hour....we lost that with huge pay cuts as everyone knows...
BUT HERE IS THE QUESTION:
how much should a 737NG captain get at the top of the longevity scale /hourly, with pension, health, vacation, and other benefits? I am using the 737NG as sort of a standard...767 would be more...EMB190 would be less etc.
how much do we think WE are worth?
BUT HERE IS THE QUESTION:
how much should a 737NG captain get at the top of the longevity scale /hourly, with pension, health, vacation, and other benefits? I am using the 737NG as sort of a standard...767 would be more...EMB190 would be less etc.
how much do we think WE are worth?
how much do we think WE are worth?
Who cares? Management, the traveling public and the general public could give a damn what we think we are worth. We are coldly looked upon as a unfortunate cost of doing business and are paid based on what we negotiate.
Management coldly looks at the costs involved to increase our pay, the costs to replace us with other pilots or those of another holding company, or the costs involved with the liquidation of the company. What our perceptions our when we look in the mirror are not a concern for them and I don't blame them. We also shouldn't flatter ourselves when we get managments close attention. We're nothing more than a daily expense decison like that of buying a jet or a box of toilet paper.
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Management coldly looks at the costs involved to increase our pay, the costs to replace us with other pilots or those of another holding company, or the costs involved with the liquidation of the company. What our perceptions our when we look in the mirror are not a concern for them and I don't blame them. We also shouldn't flatter ourselves when we get managments close attention. We're nothing more than a daily expense decison like that of buying a jet or a box of toilet paper.
Sadly, many line pilots go through their entire career without realising these very basic facts.
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Totally agree 411. And, when we are flying these incredibly expensive (per hour) aircraft, what we are paid doesn't even show on the bottom line. Double it or work for nothing, it makes no real difference to the total cost of doing business. But put one in the dirt......
If you are flying a 402 or Beech 99/1900 then the hourly rate of the pilot is significant - say you are making 40 dollars an hour. 19 Passengers on the 1900. Reasonable pay. 300 passengers....say what?
We have steadily lost ground in the 40 years I have been in this business. I could buy a NICE new car with the before tax Captain MONTHLY salary when I started and the airlines had smaller airplanes. We worked 70 hours a month, and had rules about how we were treated.
Sadly, we gave it all away. And, the incredible thing is - it didn't help the companies at all.
If you are flying a 402 or Beech 99/1900 then the hourly rate of the pilot is significant - say you are making 40 dollars an hour. 19 Passengers on the 1900. Reasonable pay. 300 passengers....say what?
We have steadily lost ground in the 40 years I have been in this business. I could buy a NICE new car with the before tax Captain MONTHLY salary when I started and the airlines had smaller airplanes. We worked 70 hours a month, and had rules about how we were treated.
Sadly, we gave it all away. And, the incredible thing is - it didn't help the companies at all.
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it's ironic, considering management are the ones who can be easily replaced, who make much more than the workers who are directly involved in getting the plane from point A to B.