Easy Jet To Use Infra Red Cameras To Avoid Ash
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: London
Age: 50
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Easy Jet To Use Infra Red Cameras To Avoid Ash
Easy Jet are to use Infra Red cameras to help avoid ash clouds. Thry are saying it will monitor the movement of ash clouds upto 100km therfore, avoiding the ash.
Sounds very "Easy".
Sounds very "Easy".
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: 42 34N, 3 02E
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Will not the dust particles be at ambient air temperature, thus invisible to IR? These minute particles have no internal heat source and no heat storage capacity do they? Or is sunlight reflected off them? In which case will it work at night?
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This story got coverage on UK BBC TV News this morning, featuring the CEO of Easyjet. However, Easyjet itself evidently considers this more PR than 'news' - there's absolutely nothing about it on the EJ website 'news' page!
He described an 'infra-red camera' to be fitted to aircraft which would give visualisation of 'tiny' amounts of VA up to '100s' of miles away. Easyjet to spend '£1m' fitting out 'a dozen' aircraft. He also said that the system fitted to '100s' of aircraft would give real-time data about location of VA.
OK so far.
But this cannot be new technology so why nothing much about this concept before?
Fitting 100s of systems and providing real-time data collection (via existing aircraft telemetry? another data channel? you tell me!) would cost a LOT more than £1m!!!
He was asked whether this was 'new technology' but only said it was 'exciting'. Later, he also said that IR had advanced a lot in recent years. But it does sound like nothing much really new is involved. So I'm a little sceptical, along with other posts already here, about what technical gain existing IR can give.
And as posts in the VA main thread have already pointed out, even if you get real-time warning of VA (say) 20 miles ahead, 'what you gonna do about it'?! NATS et al might get a teeny bit tetchy and flustered if aircraft all over the sky suddenly started requesting ad hoc route / height changes.
He described an 'infra-red camera' to be fitted to aircraft which would give visualisation of 'tiny' amounts of VA up to '100s' of miles away. Easyjet to spend '£1m' fitting out 'a dozen' aircraft. He also said that the system fitted to '100s' of aircraft would give real-time data about location of VA.
OK so far.
But this cannot be new technology so why nothing much about this concept before?
Fitting 100s of systems and providing real-time data collection (via existing aircraft telemetry? another data channel? you tell me!) would cost a LOT more than £1m!!!
He was asked whether this was 'new technology' but only said it was 'exciting'. Later, he also said that IR had advanced a lot in recent years. But it does sound like nothing much really new is involved. So I'm a little sceptical, along with other posts already here, about what technical gain existing IR can give.
And as posts in the VA main thread have already pointed out, even if you get real-time warning of VA (say) 20 miles ahead, 'what you gonna do about it'?! NATS et al might get a teeny bit tetchy and flustered if aircraft all over the sky suddenly started requesting ad hoc route / height changes.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: uk
Age: 74
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: uk
Age: 74
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
More details
Senior scientist Fred Prata has developed the ground-breaking volcanic ash detector that allows the aircraft to see the microscopic ash particles and avoid it.The specially developed camera will be able to give five minute warnings both day and night about ash ahead. Even better detection through the models is being developed at NILU at this very moment, ensuring that such crisis can be avoided in the future.
“Using the infrared camera, satellite data and algorithms that convert data from satellites, aircrafts will be able to get the necessary notifications every time they approach a volcanic ash cloud. The aircraft will then be able to steer clear of clouds and continue the journey instead of being put on the ground for an indefinite amount of time, as they do today," Prata says.
The technology has been patented and spun out to a commercial company, Nicarnica.
They have three products on that site, but no further details about AVOID is posted there.
The company was founded in 2009, with one of the founders being Dr Prata.
This article from 2003 indicates that the development of this technology dates back to the 1990's (by Dr Prata).
“An early prototype was taken to Sakurajima in Japan in 1991-1993…. Then we stopped development for lack of interest."
This could be the AVOID system, photo is credited to Prata.
Source
“Using the infrared camera, satellite data and algorithms that convert data from satellites, aircrafts will be able to get the necessary notifications every time they approach a volcanic ash cloud. The aircraft will then be able to steer clear of clouds and continue the journey instead of being put on the ground for an indefinite amount of time, as they do today," Prata says.
The technology has been patented and spun out to a commercial company, Nicarnica.
They have three products on that site, but no further details about AVOID is posted there.
The company was founded in 2009, with one of the founders being Dr Prata.
This article from 2003 indicates that the development of this technology dates back to the 1990's (by Dr Prata).
“An early prototype was taken to Sakurajima in Japan in 1991-1993…. Then we stopped development for lack of interest."
This could be the AVOID system, photo is credited to Prata.
Source
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vance, Belgium
Age: 62
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
3 Posts
This technology uses infrared cameras with good spectral resolution and feeding their signal to a computer performing spectral analysis and differential spectral analysis. Although the measurement tools are quite different, it shares the same intellectual approach to analysing the chemical composition of distant stars through spectroscopes.
The use of IR range is related to getting good and predictable illumination of the analysed volume.
You can find here http://www.geo.mtu.edu/~raman/papers2/PrataNatHaz08.pdf
a scientific paper cosigned by Mr Prata and explaining different detection techniques of volcanic clouds.
(read particularly pages 4 to 9)
If you want to know more about spectral analysis, googling on "Fourier transform spectroscopy" gathers useful results.
Luc
The use of IR range is related to getting good and predictable illumination of the analysed volume.
You can find here http://www.geo.mtu.edu/~raman/papers2/PrataNatHaz08.pdf
a scientific paper cosigned by Mr Prata and explaining different detection techniques of volcanic clouds.
(read particularly pages 4 to 9)
If you want to know more about spectral analysis, googling on "Fourier transform spectroscopy" gathers useful results.
Luc
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hmmmm....
There were previous references to Mr (Dr?) Prata here around 16th May.
If it's true (as suggested in a reference above) that Mr Prata was all set to Rock & Roll with development of a VA detection system in 2006, and was then sacked / made redundant / moved on from CSIRO, due to no support for the work - that's quite ironic.
Note that the other primary reference to previous Prata work relates only to a system to analyze satellite data. The AVOID concept of putting (a) camera(s) on aircraft and analyzing forward-look IR data from these is hardly documented or advertised at all, as far as I can see. No peer-reviewed reports, with actual results, that I could find.
I'm still having huge problems envisaging how a mass of real-time FLIR data from aircraft cameras is going to get integrated and then used to revise routeing and height instructions from NATS, etc. to aircraft in flight..... Putting a camera on a single aircraft, processing the data on-board, presenting it to the pilot (somehow), and then allowing him/her to make (independent?) decisions about what to do next seems highly suspect to me! And that assumes that the processed data has enough precision about the range, height, density of any VA cloud(s) detected to be useful in minute-to-minute decision-making.
OTOH, TWO sideways-looking cameras collecting data about what VA might be approaching a route or retreating from it, and updating a central database available to dispatchers, cres and ATC - maybe that's another, better idea.
There were previous references to Mr (Dr?) Prata here around 16th May.
If it's true (as suggested in a reference above) that Mr Prata was all set to Rock & Roll with development of a VA detection system in 2006, and was then sacked / made redundant / moved on from CSIRO, due to no support for the work - that's quite ironic.
Note that the other primary reference to previous Prata work relates only to a system to analyze satellite data. The AVOID concept of putting (a) camera(s) on aircraft and analyzing forward-look IR data from these is hardly documented or advertised at all, as far as I can see. No peer-reviewed reports, with actual results, that I could find.
I'm still having huge problems envisaging how a mass of real-time FLIR data from aircraft cameras is going to get integrated and then used to revise routeing and height instructions from NATS, etc. to aircraft in flight..... Putting a camera on a single aircraft, processing the data on-board, presenting it to the pilot (somehow), and then allowing him/her to make (independent?) decisions about what to do next seems highly suspect to me! And that assumes that the processed data has enough precision about the range, height, density of any VA cloud(s) detected to be useful in minute-to-minute decision-making.
OTOH, TWO sideways-looking cameras collecting data about what VA might be approaching a route or retreating from it, and updating a central database available to dispatchers, cres and ATC - maybe that's another, better idea.
Last edited by brooksjg; 4th Jun 2010 at 16:06.
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: South East England
Posts: 586
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PR stunt from a desperate airline.Easyjet snakeoil cure all.This system has been looked at before and not found favour with the authorities and other airlnes.Easyjet are desperate given their recent cancellation record to find a magic bullet that might encourage the travelling public to start booking with them again.
Will not the dust particles be at ambient air temperature, thus invisible to IR? These minute particles have no internal heat source and no heat storage capacity do they? Or is sunlight reflected off them? In which case will it work at night?
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: care home for redundant has beens
Age: 57
Posts: 237
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If easyjet want to reduce the number of cancellations, they should consider recruiting more pilots and cabin crew rather than this load of BS.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Among camels and dunes
Posts: 425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How do you operate this when the airspace is closed and the aircraft are grounded and no one is allowed in that area???? This seems to be a long the same lines as having your aircraft towed to the runway to save money. Bit of a prank for free advertising.
More bang for your buck
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: land of the clanger
Age: 82
Posts: 3,512
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How do you operate this when the airspace is closed and the aircraft are grounded and no one is allowed in that area????
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find it sad to read the negativity and complete lack of operational knowledge churned out in this thread.
It is almost a glee to want to see airlines fail!!! and a jumping in at any suggestion which might help improve things rather than a positive encouragement.
As to a few posters who question how ATC will ever manage aircraft requesting level changes or direction changes to avoid with only 50 odd miles warning!
Please come up with me over the London area with a decent active cold front and you will be amazed at the amount of level changes and heading change requests you will hear called for and approved.
Pace
It is almost a glee to want to see airlines fail!!! and a jumping in at any suggestion which might help improve things rather than a positive encouragement.
As to a few posters who question how ATC will ever manage aircraft requesting level changes or direction changes to avoid with only 50 odd miles warning!
Please come up with me over the London area with a decent active cold front and you will be amazed at the amount of level changes and heading change requests you will hear called for and approved.
Pace
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's a bit of a difference between a request for a height / heading change (at least partly) for the comfort of pax and a 'must have' change because the current heading / height is not going to be 'safe' after another n minutes (where n is less than 5).
My scepticism was not primarily on account of ATC consequences anyway. I'm much more concerned that systems on board aircraft on scheduled routes would actually add value in practice. Potentially, a lot of cost and extra weight that could not be recovered / removed when there is no ash risk, combined with little real benefit when it does get used.
My scepticism was not primarily on account of ATC consequences anyway. I'm much more concerned that systems on board aircraft on scheduled routes would actually add value in practice. Potentially, a lot of cost and extra weight that could not be recovered / removed when there is no ash risk, combined with little real benefit when it does get used.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: La Belle Province
Posts: 2,179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It could even be a reactive tool rather than a preventative one (much like a hard landing detector doesn't prevent hard landings, but does allow them to be properly addressed appropriately.
