ATC Issues A place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.

Spanish ATC

Old 25th Jul 2010, 11:28
  #321 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,390
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well, the +10 window is for variation in 'real-life' taxi time, other causes of operational friction, and finally ATC sequencing at the holding point. Operators should conduct all planning on the CTOT, not CTOT +10. That's what leads to poor slot adherence and ATC capacity issues.

In the Spanish example, who is to say that nearly every outbound didn't have their own CTOTs? Maybe they had additional restrictions in place too? Perhaps some taxiway closures that made the 7 minutes until the CTOT unrealistic? Perhaps there were aircraft pushing back/about to push back nearby that would delay this aircraft's own push back? You really don't want to start an aircraft only for it to not make the CTOT, because then you have an aircraft out near the ruwnay with what might turn out to be an hour's, or more, delay with all the increased workload that entails.

Could that aircraft physically have made it to the runway in 7 minutes? Possibly. Perhaps only if every other aircraft on the airfield was stopped to give way to it. I've denied start to many flights before in this situation, as an ATCO you have to balance the need of the few against the need of the many. Sometimes your judgement is that it isn't worth it. You could stop everything for 5 mins to get this one flight out on it's CTOT, but nobody would get anywhere if we treated all flights like this.

Where I work, I'd be very unlikely to give start to an aircraft 7 minutes away from the CTOT unless it was dead, i.e. no more than one at the holding point.

Each airfield will have it's own taxi time, and if the aircraft does not call ready CTOT -taxi time then technically, yes, it is the operator's responsiblity to send a DLA message and get a new CTOT, not ATC's. Granted, ATC usually do it in my experience, but that's what the rules say.

If you call early, yes, we will use the -5 mins, but that is sensible, because there's the window after that CTOT -5.

At the end of the day, you cannot compare two completely different airfields in what would probably be two completely different traffic/delay scenarios.

That was my point.
Gonzo is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 12:05
  #322 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,023
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes on 1 Post
The debate splits pretty evenly between those that have to fly to Spain and those that are lucky enough not to.

This is not about CTOTs or flight levels it is about the spanish controllers being bloody minded to pilots as part of their work to rule. If you sit in a dark room somewhere in northern europe you may be expected to be sympathetic to your colleagues in Spain. My point is that they are being needlessly confrontational with pilots who are not the enemy, but will increasingly become so if they continue in the same vein.

According to the spanish government the average pay was over 300,000 euros per controller in 2009, with 28 earning over 700,000 and just two on 90,000. The only guy who has responded to this with alternate figures seems to be one of the unlucky two. The rest have kept very quiet. Sure the government is playing propaganda. But other than Perez producing a roster for August which seems to show management responding to the sickout (in excess of 10 percent in July) nobody has been very convincing on the controller side.

Put your side of the debate more convincingly and maybe we can help each other. Continue with the confrontation (with pilots) and we will start finding ways to respond like Nightstop's suggestion.
lederhosen is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 12:22
  #323 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Put out to graze
Age: 63
Posts: 1,046
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Gonzo,

Perhaps you can explain this to me....

I have a CTOT and I get to the hold for 36R in Madrid. There are 5 aircraft ahead of us, all Iberia. However, instead of putting us to Y2 or Y3 ( an intersection approx one or two hundred metres up from the end, we are told to queue behind Iberia. When I reminded him of our slot, his reply ' don't worry, we have and extension!' an extension until all the Iberia have taken off before us.

And before you ask, no, they didn't all have slots!
kick the tires is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 12:32
  #324 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Poland
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
And before you ask, no, they didn't all have slots!
How do you know?
samotnik is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 12:52
  #325 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Put out to graze
Age: 63
Posts: 1,046
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Because ATC said they didn't when we asked. After which we heard a Spanish pilot say 'keep the foreigners at the back'. Charming.

Surprisingly, some of us DO speak the local language!

Now samotnik, what would you like to contribute to this thread?
kick the tires is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 13:07
  #326 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
lederhosen, the government is not reacting to anything. Controllers are going on sick leave because of the stress caused by the new roster patterns and nazi tactics the government are using.

Since you like generalizations such as Spanish ATC is bad how about this one: German pilots are confrontational.

KTT, are you sure any of you had a working knowledge of Spanish? Never heard such purposes on the frequency or in the cockpit.

I understand that companies with tight turnaround schedules only achievable in a perfect world are bound to be the more upset by the current situation.
ant1 is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 13:22
  #327 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Uh... Where was I?
Posts: 1,338
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
LEDERHOSEN

nice post. I love the paralelism with platoon!

I am not saying that this situation is not creating a lot of problems to a lot of people. I am not saying that spanish ATC have not enjoyed very very very good terms and conditions in their job. I am not saying that spanish ATC has a high standard.

But the ones to dropped the atomic bomb on the spanish ATC have been the government ones, and not because they want the ATC to be better, and with reasonable terms and conditions. They did it because they want to go to total war. They expect to win it, and to use it for other purposes. Before the "bomb" the ATCOs made quite reasonable proposals with very substansial changes on their salaries. But the government wants blood and war.

Royal decrees are not the way to do things. They can do the same with anyone else tomorrow. Actually, they did something similar with IBE pilots years ago. They were forbidden by law to go on strike to a period of 4 years, and had to accept a set of conditions arbitrarily decided by a "referee". Of course, there was work to rule and similar things, but their rights were effectively eliminated. Elimination of rights is a fascist way of solving problems. That's what I think.

The ATCos are defending themselves, but they have little to do. They are doomed whatever they do, no matter how much they resist. The problem is that some ATCOs are under a great deal of pressure and that is no good.

Soon the ATC will see the same nonsense and inefficient situation as pilots face nowadays, and we will even see pay to control ATCOs. That is sad.
The spanish having their salaries and conditions reduced to a reasonable level, that's good. 1,000 people wasting a lot of money to get a ATCo license when only 100 will be required is absolutely inefficient and useless.
The previous situation was not fair, but the situation to come will not be fair, either, and the only benefited from the change will the same as always, the big fishes, not the ordinary people.

The government selling the spanish airports for peanuts to their friends... That's a robbery, and this is what will happen, the ATCos being used as a very handy excuse.
Microburst2002 is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 13:32
  #328 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Put out to graze
Age: 63
Posts: 1,046
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
ANT1,

My Spanish is not brilliant however my First Officers is - he is a Spanish national, who was both embarrassed and disgusted by both parties.

Sadly, there was no doubt.
kick the tires is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 13:37
  #329 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,023
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes on 1 Post
Well Microburst we can certainly agree on most of that. My point is you could do this without completely alienating us the pilots.
lederhosen is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 13:43
  #330 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
KTT, granted it is true, I would take it a disgraceful exception of which I am myself ashamed.
ant1 is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 14:14
  #331 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,390
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I don't know as I wasn't there, but it's conceivable that ATC did get you an extension from either the Spanish FMP or from CFMU direct, depending on where the regulation was. If the extension had been given, why would you assume that you should depart ahead of other aicraft?

Also, What SIDs were you and the others on? What SIDs are coming out after you? What departure separations are there from that runway? Were there any flow restrictions such as MDIs/ADIs in force? What wake vortex category were all the a/c involved? What speed group were all the aircraft? What type were all the aircraft? What were the start approval times/start request times for all the aircraft? Any noise abatement issues? Any separation issues with other airports/runways? What was the filed speed of all the aircraft? What was the filed level of all the aircraft? Any temporary airspace closures? Any problems at the centre which might cause one or more SIDs to catch a delay? Were there any impending events such as runway inspection/taxiway closures/airspace closures coming up? Were there any ground movement control issues about keeping you at the intersection for a few minutes? Were there any GMC issues that meant it was better for you to go from the full length?

When I'm doing departures, this is what I'm thinking of, and more. Once I know that I will get you away in the CTOT window (including any extension, which I probably won't tell you about to be honest), then I attempt to get the greatest number of aircraft away in thew shortest possible time. That might mean you getting airborne at the very end of the window.
Gonzo is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 15:05
  #332 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: 🇬🇧🇪🇸
Posts: 2,094
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Interesting Spanish TV feature today, Sunday morning, featuring Snr Blanco, a female ATCO (nice kitchen BTW....) and a representative of the Spanish ATCO's Union. It also showed a military ATC room which looked like something from 1936-9, hope their guys/girls really don't start attempting Civil ATC..it'll be a disaster for sure
Nightstop is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 15:09
  #333 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
We were limited to FL 240 for 100NM when we had flight planned at FL380. So how is that keeping to the flight plan?
So, you received a long step climb, so what?
You're certainly not the only airplane in the sky at that particular moment, others share the airspace as well....so get used to it.
Oh, boo hoo...

Years ago, BA was enroute over Iran, restricted to FL240 due to traffic.
BA complained, said they had to land if a higher level was not available.
Tehran ATC mentioned the fuel price at THR, and issued descent instructions.
BA declined...and shut up.

Pilots will just have to learn to plan for contingencies, instead of always expecting short cuts/direct routings/higher levels.
To do otherwise is unprofessional...seemingly the norm these days in Euroland, from some of the complaints noted here.
411A is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 18:05
  #334 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Location: Location:
Age: 53
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
411A

For all your experience you really have no idea whats happening in Europe right now so to stop you looking stupid it might be an idea to keep your anecdotes and smartass comments to yourself....Its not you that got home 2 hours late last night for a straightforward out and back

ITS SIMPLE......

Spanish ATC are using crews/aircraft/passengers as pawns in their little game of chess with the Spanish Government.

Theres very little point in discussing CTOT's, Levels, speeds operationally ATC in every nation will forever just play the "operational" card and trump whatever reasonable arguement you make....ATC conveniently forget that we've had flexibility regarding levels/CTOT-5+10/Direct routings for TEN YEARS even through the boom times of 2007/2008 when there was much more traffic about.

I got let go from AGP yesterday at CTOT -7, I then had to fly the full departure going 20 odd miles in the wrong direction and subsequently flew over every single waypoint on my flightplan zigzagging my way across the continent.

Now whilst grateful for the early release theres no consistency regarding making certain sectors at certain levels and according to flow regulations. SO the tower guy lets me goes early (Thanks) and when transferred to the guy downstairs make me fly 60 miles out of my way - wheres the efficiency in that?

We got asked to climb on un864 because of opposite direction traffic, I asked for direct mont d'aree if I would he declined so I did as well. I was bloody ashamed afterwards but its getting that stupid.

They're bullying the people that cant fight back, ironically if I thought their action would do any good I'd put up with it, they're wasting our time for no reason
G-SPOTs Lost is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 19:41
  #335 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: on the way to sea
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
on the other hand - how else should they fight back?
kontrolor is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 20:13
  #336 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: EU
Posts: 1,231
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
With greatest respect, the reliance on quoting a plethora of rules to explain away the awful behaviour of Spanish ATC in recent weeks simply makes certain people appear like proverbial ostriches with heads firmly below terra firma. It's disingenuous in the extreme to pretend that Spanish ATC are merely enforcing rules in order to expediate traffic flow safely.

The service on the ground in places like Malaga and Palma, and in the air in Madrid and Barcelona FIRs, in recent weeks has been truly embarrassing for Spain. If you don't believe me, why don't you organise a group outing to somewhere like London and Gatwick airport and see how the professionals manage to combine common-sense, helpfulness, consideration with the rules to expedite the safe flow of traffic.

I imagine I am not alone in never having flown a full FPL route and STAR into Stansted or Gatwick or a SID outbound, yet their controllers manage to handle huge volumes of traffic without pausing for breath!

Thank goodness I'm rostered to fly around northern Europe tomorrow. I'll bet you the shirt off my back that I don't fly the full SID, get a number of unprompted shortcuts, the flight level I request despite the more conservative FPL FL, and get a 500nm direct from one side of Europe to the other before getting a direct to centre-fix...just like we used to get in Spanish airspace!

MH152
Mikehotel152 is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 20:29
  #337 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Actual recent conversation with BCN radar while leaving their airspace (we were filed at fl350)
Starts at Fl290 over 150nm miles after take off having been at fl290 for quite a while..
Me, BCN is the traffic 18nm ahead of us the reason we cant climb?
BCN, Sir there is no traffic 18nm ahead of you what level are you filed?
A very confused me double checking the TCAS, We are filed at FL350.
BCN, Ok climb FL350 why didnt you ask?
Me, Decided to stay quiet
A few seconds later
BCN, turn right 20 degrees due traffic at your 12 o clock 17nm ahead.
Me

Good job guys I fully support your claim to 200k a year
wayupthere is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 21:18
  #338 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Spain
Age: 72
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Wayupthere,

Of course seems to be quite awful what happened to you. Let me show a part of a message from pperez the the following link, and answer me, if your case could be maybe caused because some controlllers are working 15 days with no days off, or having 4 days off in a complete month.

Or maybe this is not the case...

You will see more clearly directly in the original post:
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/416...n-spain-4.html


AENA published the rosters for august last july 21th, applying the new 10-day notice for Spanish ATCO´s. And here is an example:
Vacation
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
1500->2200
0800->1500
Day off
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
Day off
1500->2200
1500->2200
1500->2200
0800->1500
Day off
Day off
0800->1500
1500->2200
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
1500->2200
0800->1500
0800->1500
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
0800->1500
0800->1500
0800->1500
It sums 194 hrs. in 30 days, with only 4 days off. Notice the last 14 days working in a row, with no day off.



Yet another example:
Day off
1500->2200
"0700->0830" (he must be on call in this period, if needed, he has to work from the moment he gets the call->1500)
0800->1500
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
1500->2200
Day off
0800->1500
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
Day off
1500->2200
0800->1500
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
Day off
1500->2200
1500->2200
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
Day off
1500->2200
1500->2200
1500->2200
0800->1500 and 2200->0000
0000->0800
In this case, 191,4 hrs. with the chance of becoming 198 hrs. if he gets the call on the 3rd, which is highly probable.

In both cases, you get a 33% rest (sleep) from 2200->0800, and a 25% on remainder periods. Times are local, not UTC.
Cernicalo is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 22:30
  #339 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ***
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I am with you, make it expensive to fly Spain, more expensive than to pay you right. And just because someone else gets paid less is no reason at all to not demand the pay you always have gotten and deserve.

Don't give in to the "globalization" of wages, just so some manager or politician can stuff his pockets with money.

i am with you,

Nic
Admiral346 is offline  
Old 25th Jul 2010, 22:59
  #340 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Location: Location:
Age: 53
Posts: 1,110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
kontrolor on the other hand - how else should they fight back?
They cant fight back, they earn five times what they should do, Spain is broke as a nation and they wont win, they have no public support, if they do strike they wont have public support because they earn 20 times the national average whilst at the same time spanish people are looking at pay freezes and public sector redundancies.

They wont get any sympathy from crews because of our experiences both in the past and because how they're conducting themselves at the moment.

Rock / Hard Place - unless the government acts to either give in or sack the militant ones the status quo will no doubt continue.

Going to be a long winter
G-SPOTs Lost is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.