Spanish ATC
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@surferboy: The spanish are not simply following rules as most ATCOs do, they bend them to suit their purpose which is currently to harm aviation as much as they can. It is as simple as that. It is not about safety, never was as they do not even know how to spell that word in the first place.
Surferboy as a northern european controller you cannot be expected to know first hand what is happening in Spain. Some more examples:
Transavia asks for a ready message. One hour later he calls Palma delivery because when calling the company he finds out that the ready message was never sent. Condor then discovers the same.
Another aircraft asks for a ready message and is given some garbled response that a ready message is only possible thirty minutes before EOBT, this with a slot delay of ninety minutes.
Several aircraft are told ten minutes before CTOT that they are too late and must call their company for another slot.
Now all of these things can happen.....but within a two hour period?
Transavia asks for a ready message. One hour later he calls Palma delivery because when calling the company he finds out that the ready message was never sent. Condor then discovers the same.
Another aircraft asks for a ready message and is given some garbled response that a ready message is only possible thirty minutes before EOBT, this with a slot delay of ninety minutes.
Several aircraft are told ten minutes before CTOT that they are too late and must call their company for another slot.
Now all of these things can happen.....but within a two hour period?
If that's the case lederhosen I suggest you file a report, called a Denuncia, with the Guardia Civil. A few arrests and trials with guilty verdicts for lying during the provision of a public service might put a stop to that kind of nonsense. Spain's getting pretty hot on that type of offence now 
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A apir of examples of august rosters at an Spanish ACC
That is indeed very interesting information nightstop. I have no objection to spanish controllers fighting their corner. Staging a sickout and forcing their employer to pay huge sums in overtime is an example of one tactic which may work. However the kind of behaviour we have been seeing recently and I have been to Spain three times this week is rapidly losing any sympathy you might have from us pilots.
Surferboy:
250 Knots at 10,000 feet.
Some aircraft have a good reason for being back at 250 Knots at 10,000 feet. For example, the BAe146 series of aircraft are limited to 250 Knots at 8,000 feet (and below).
This is an airframe limitation and it relates to the ability of the windscreens to absorb a bird strike below 8,000 feet.
250 Knots at 10,000 feet.
Some aircraft have a good reason for being back at 250 Knots at 10,000 feet. For example, the BAe146 series of aircraft are limited to 250 Knots at 8,000 feet (and below).
This is an airframe limitation and it relates to the ability of the windscreens to absorb a bird strike below 8,000 feet.
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There are 2,300 ATCs in Spain and 4,000 in France...........How many are there in the United Kingdom? Does anyone have the answer?
Minor nit picking on speedbird's Heathrow Approach manning numbers. There are meant to be 7 controllers rostered for a normal morning shift, not 5 or 6.
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@JW411: yes, most airframes have a "dent" in Vmo at 8000ft. Certification rules say: birds only up to 8.000ft. BUT, there the ATCO is right, when he tells me to keep high speed and that is above what I can OR want to fly I tell him, pronto. Any pilot/crew not doing so has either a proficiency or attitude prob.
"I understand that you (pilots in general) have to follow SOP's, but so do controllers. And yes there are a lot of pilots who do keep the speed up untill advised even if their SOPs state otherwise. But there are also a lot of controllers who will go out of their way to get you airborne at CTOT -5. But this is not anything that can be expected, or demanded."
How may times you think I was at the hold, say, number 3 at the exact slot time and wasn´t being allowed to takeoff? So we can´t demand/expect nothing at all, but then, we are allowed to pay for that? Is that what you are saying?
Years ago, when all this slot s.h.i.t.e. was introduced, I had a meeting with the german agency (DFS) Since I was apparently the only GA/Airtaxi person ever to contact and protest against that stuff, I received the big treatment: coffee, biscuits and roughly 8 guys from various paarts of the DFS, airspace planners, actual atcos, head of press department, you name it.
THEY told me: look, we know there is way to many things that can and do get wrong in dispatch/ground handling, we always will use the -5/+10 in your favour and thats why WE fought the +/-2 minutes Eurocontrol had in mind.
Now, as a coorperate airplane (and sometimes air taxi) pilot I do suffer from the fact, that our pax are not caged at a gate for 20-30 minutes and passed onto the airplane when more or less convinient. We sometimes wait hours for fuel, because the airlines take preceedence at the bowsers.
The stress level on flights with regulations is way higher than on flights without (many of us don´t have a backoffice, I certainly don´t, which means: deal with all the stuff)
The makers of restrictions have it easy: they just place it into system, period. Deal with it, you little s.h.i.t.t.y. pilot I could not care less about your problems etcetc. (e.g.taxi times on big airports change a lot, wether it takes that time to taxi out or not seems not to feed into the system at all) [yes I´m being cynical...]
So the situation is bad enough already, with all the sympathy I have for the gentlemen of the spanish or french or what ever air traffic control company they are from, for their work conflicts [surely there are things to fight for, the spanish work schedules look....tiring to say the least], but being the anvil in their struggle is NOT a nice feeling. I can´t do anything about it.
Let the King wait 3 hours, the prime minister or state guests.
That would change things quickly. But you haven´t got the guts to do that, have you? THEY could strike back, but low life foreigners? Let them suffer!!!
[I wouldn´t do that either with your wages and pensions to be lost - seriously! I just wan´t you to understand that we can´t change it for you]
Being the person responsible to clear the bills from eurocontrol I do know exactly what we pay for something that I often would not describe as service.
I´ve got no spain/france trips for the next 5 weeks!!! There surely is a god somewhere...
"I understand that you (pilots in general) have to follow SOP's, but so do controllers. And yes there are a lot of pilots who do keep the speed up untill advised even if their SOPs state otherwise. But there are also a lot of controllers who will go out of their way to get you airborne at CTOT -5. But this is not anything that can be expected, or demanded."
How may times you think I was at the hold, say, number 3 at the exact slot time and wasn´t being allowed to takeoff? So we can´t demand/expect nothing at all, but then, we are allowed to pay for that? Is that what you are saying?
Years ago, when all this slot s.h.i.t.e. was introduced, I had a meeting with the german agency (DFS) Since I was apparently the only GA/Airtaxi person ever to contact and protest against that stuff, I received the big treatment: coffee, biscuits and roughly 8 guys from various paarts of the DFS, airspace planners, actual atcos, head of press department, you name it.
THEY told me: look, we know there is way to many things that can and do get wrong in dispatch/ground handling, we always will use the -5/+10 in your favour and thats why WE fought the +/-2 minutes Eurocontrol had in mind.
Now, as a coorperate airplane (and sometimes air taxi) pilot I do suffer from the fact, that our pax are not caged at a gate for 20-30 minutes and passed onto the airplane when more or less convinient. We sometimes wait hours for fuel, because the airlines take preceedence at the bowsers.
The stress level on flights with regulations is way higher than on flights without (many of us don´t have a backoffice, I certainly don´t, which means: deal with all the stuff)
The makers of restrictions have it easy: they just place it into system, period. Deal with it, you little s.h.i.t.t.y. pilot I could not care less about your problems etcetc. (e.g.taxi times on big airports change a lot, wether it takes that time to taxi out or not seems not to feed into the system at all) [yes I´m being cynical...]
So the situation is bad enough already, with all the sympathy I have for the gentlemen of the spanish or french or what ever air traffic control company they are from, for their work conflicts [surely there are things to fight for, the spanish work schedules look....tiring to say the least], but being the anvil in their struggle is NOT a nice feeling. I can´t do anything about it.
Let the King wait 3 hours, the prime minister or state guests.
That would change things quickly. But you haven´t got the guts to do that, have you? THEY could strike back, but low life foreigners? Let them suffer!!!
[I wouldn´t do that either with your wages and pensions to be lost - seriously! I just wan´t you to understand that we can´t change it for you]
Being the person responsible to clear the bills from eurocontrol I do know exactly what we pay for something that I often would not describe as service.
I´ve got no spain/france trips for the next 5 weeks!!! There surely is a god somewhere...
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@ JW411: I am aware of the aircraft limitations of RJ1H/RJ85/Bae146/E190 etc. I was however talking about A320-series and B737-series from various operators who will not say anything when they reduce from 300+ kts to 250kts when i've told them (at least 1 time) 'Keep speed xxxkts or greater until advised, also below FL100'
@ His Dudeness:
"How may times you think I was at the hold, say, number 3 at the exact slot time and wasn´t being allowed to takeoff? So we can´t demand/expect nothing at all, but then, we are allowed to pay for that? Is that what you are saying?"
No that is not what i'm saying, I was only saying you can't demand to depart @ CTOT -5 if you are ready and waiting. The aim of slots and Flowcontrol is to depart exactly at that calculated takeoff time or as close as possible, with a small window to enable outbound sequencing at the rwy. You can see it as sh*t, but maybe what you need is a visit to a larger and busier centre during an Inbound-rush.
@ His Dudeness:
"How may times you think I was at the hold, say, number 3 at the exact slot time and wasn´t being allowed to takeoff? So we can´t demand/expect nothing at all, but then, we are allowed to pay for that? Is that what you are saying?"
No that is not what i'm saying, I was only saying you can't demand to depart @ CTOT -5 if you are ready and waiting. The aim of slots and Flowcontrol is to depart exactly at that calculated takeoff time or as close as possible, with a small window to enable outbound sequencing at the rwy. You can see it as sh*t, but maybe what you need is a visit to a larger and busier centre during an Inbound-rush.
Anybody else sense a bit of thread drift? the story so far:
The mean spanish government has decided that air trafic controllers in Spain are a soft target and are hell bent on implementing change.
The plucky controllers are winning the hearts and minds of their friends the pilots and passengers by working to rule.
Anyone who does not agree is a fascist and does not understand that innocent people occasionally get hurt in a war.
.................
The (alternate universe) other view is that Spain along with much of europe is essentially bankrupt. The controllers have been onto a nice little number where some of them have been earning a lot of money and not providing a particularly good service.
When faced with a government determined to push through change the controllers have started behaving like soldiers in Vietnam and got a bit confused about who is the enemy, remember the village scene in Platoon?
Rather than fighting a disciplined campaign they are playing right into the hands of the spanish government. If they carry on as they are doing the end result will be the same as for the americans in Vietnam.
The mean spanish government has decided that air trafic controllers in Spain are a soft target and are hell bent on implementing change.
The plucky controllers are winning the hearts and minds of their friends the pilots and passengers by working to rule.
Anyone who does not agree is a fascist and does not understand that innocent people occasionally get hurt in a war.
.................
The (alternate universe) other view is that Spain along with much of europe is essentially bankrupt. The controllers have been onto a nice little number where some of them have been earning a lot of money and not providing a particularly good service.
When faced with a government determined to push through change the controllers have started behaving like soldiers in Vietnam and got a bit confused about who is the enemy, remember the village scene in Platoon?
Rather than fighting a disciplined campaign they are playing right into the hands of the spanish government. If they carry on as they are doing the end result will be the same as for the americans in Vietnam.
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ATC bull****
Heard on the radio in Spain. ATC -"Maintain assigned level". Pilot -"Request further climb". -"Negative you are filed on that level why don`t you file a higher level on your flightplan. You should know better" Pilot -"Request any directs" Spanish ATC" Neagtive. Due to AENA directives STD routing"
Who cares about enviroment?
Heard on the radio in Germany "Cleared direct to Olben" This was from far away from the Swiss border going south so the German ATC can give direts.
The Spanish Not? 
Heard on Swedish ATC. Pilot "Request further climb". ATC "What level do you want?" Pilot "FL 410". Swedsih ATC directly says "Climb FL 410"
Thanks to all controllers in Europe who understand the symbiosis between ATC and Pilots! Spanish controllers excluded.
Heard on the radio in Spain. (Not in BCN or MAD, where they speak Spanish all the time. Except to foreign A/C. So all this BS about not needing to knoe the information falls) "Since your slot is at 15.35 and the time now is 15.28 you have missed your slot and you can not push" Puzzled pilot answers " Do we not have a 10 min window after the CTOT?" Spanish ATC answers (in a very superior voice) "You do not know the rules and you should know better, contact your company for a new slot"
Pilot says "I am sure we can make it within the window" ATC "No it is up to me to decide" Even more puzzled pilot asks humbly "Maybe you can help me?" Spanish ATC " No it is not my job! Cotact your company"
Heard on the radio in England. "Request push and start" this was 15 min before CTOT "You are cleared to push and start" Guess what? There was no sequencing, only one A/C at the airport (the one taking off) and they got airborne 5 min before their CTOT. For all you non ATC/Pilots I tell you that for 30 years this has always been the case and the rules have not changed.
To all pilots I just say. Take it easy, do not get angry. Remember, the first persons to the accident site are the pilots. Do not take the anger with you on flightdeck. When the controllers get upset they take an extra coffee and take their rest. Play the game.
This is the reality in Spain at the moment. Very sad.....
To all controllers in Spain I just say. The rules do not prohibit you from letting a/c go 5 min early or 10 min late. Maybe it is all the controllers in Europe that are wrong and you are the only ones who know the rules.
Good luck out there and be positive
Who cares about enviroment?
Heard on the radio in Germany "Cleared direct to Olben" This was from far away from the Swiss border going south so the German ATC can give direts.
The Spanish Not? Heard on Swedish ATC. Pilot "Request further climb". ATC "What level do you want?" Pilot "FL 410". Swedsih ATC directly says "Climb FL 410"
Thanks to all controllers in Europe who understand the symbiosis between ATC and Pilots! Spanish controllers excluded.
Heard on the radio in Spain. (Not in BCN or MAD, where they speak Spanish all the time. Except to foreign A/C. So all this BS about not needing to knoe the information falls) "Since your slot is at 15.35 and the time now is 15.28 you have missed your slot and you can not push" Puzzled pilot answers " Do we not have a 10 min window after the CTOT?" Spanish ATC answers (in a very superior voice) "You do not know the rules and you should know better, contact your company for a new slot"
Pilot says "I am sure we can make it within the window" ATC "No it is up to me to decide" Even more puzzled pilot asks humbly "Maybe you can help me?" Spanish ATC " No it is not my job! Cotact your company"
Heard on the radio in England. "Request push and start" this was 15 min before CTOT
"You are cleared to push and start" Guess what? There was no sequencing, only one A/C at the airport (the one taking off) and they got airborne 5 min before their CTOT. For all you non ATC/Pilots I tell you that for 30 years this has always been the case and the rules have not changed.To all pilots I just say. Take it easy, do not get angry. Remember, the first persons to the accident site are the pilots. Do not take the anger with you on flightdeck. When the controllers get upset they take an extra coffee and take their rest. Play the game.
This is the reality in Spain at the moment. Very sad.....
To all controllers in Spain I just say. The rules do not prohibit you from letting a/c go 5 min early or 10 min late. Maybe it is all the controllers in Europe that are wrong and you are the only ones who know the rules.
Good luck out there and be positive
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-"Negative you are filed on that level why don`t you file a higher level on your flightplan. You should know better"
Follow the plot...and stop giving the ATC folks on the ground a hard time.
Some pilots never learn.
As my grandmother used to say...
"The fat yank in the corner, should never open his mouth and confirm his stupidity, rather keep people guessing". You obviously have no understanding of what is going on here.
I was in Palma yesterday, when the ATC caused complete and utter confusion on the ground. It was impressive how people kept their cool with such obvious militant jobs-worths.
We were limited to FL 240 for 100NM when we had flight planned at FL380. So how is that keeping to the flight plan?
Your pearl of righteous wisdom is not required.
"The fat yank in the corner, should never open his mouth and confirm his stupidity, rather keep people guessing". You obviously have no understanding of what is going on here.
I was in Palma yesterday, when the ATC caused complete and utter confusion on the ground. It was impressive how people kept their cool with such obvious militant jobs-worths.
We were limited to FL 240 for 100NM when we had flight planned at FL380. So how is that keeping to the flight plan?
Your pearl of righteous wisdom is not required.
Last edited by Spunky Monkey; 25th Jul 2010 at 08:06. Reason: accuracy
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Pilot -"Request any directs"
To be quite honest, I can get a bit irritated with those requests. The decision to give a direct is a decision made by the controller and only by the controller. I can have tons of reasons for not giving a direct:
- If the Spanish controller is right and AENA has forbidden the use of directs, I would also think twice...rather not lose my job over something as stupid as a dct. (How much does it actually save? 30 sec, 2 min if you get a very good one? And how much airborne delay do you get when arriving at the destination, where they have to reduce you and vector you around 'cause you're right in the middle of a bunch wich you could have avoided when not flying dct)
- Workload, the controller is the one that has an overview of the current traffic situation. And in most cases sending anyone direct will directly increase the workload. (Much more conflicts when sending anyone direct)
Therefore it is his (or her) decision to send you, keeping in mind traffic that you might not even hear on the frequency, traffic that is coming on freq. in a few minutes or for instance crossing of other airspace than the ones you filed in. (That controller doesn't know you, so there could be up to 6 phonecalls to be made before you can cut let's say 3 miles off of you original route.)
- Military activity, I can only give you direct when I have it available!
This is not to defend what is going on in Spain, 'cause I haven't got a clue, I don't fly there. But it is just to let you see that giving a direct is not just at the controllers whim, and when it is, it's also (most of the time) thought through.
Saw a post from someone a while ago, went something like this:
Every flight is a possible mayday, and maydays equal a lot of paperwork. I don't like paperwork, so the sooner you leave my airspace the sooner you are someone else's possible mayday. Therefore I always try to minimise your time in my bit of airspace, so if I can...you WILL get the direct. So please stop 'requesting' directs.
To be quite honest, I can get a bit irritated with those requests. The decision to give a direct is a decision made by the controller and only by the controller. I can have tons of reasons for not giving a direct:
- If the Spanish controller is right and AENA has forbidden the use of directs, I would also think twice...rather not lose my job over something as stupid as a dct. (How much does it actually save? 30 sec, 2 min if you get a very good one? And how much airborne delay do you get when arriving at the destination, where they have to reduce you and vector you around 'cause you're right in the middle of a bunch wich you could have avoided when not flying dct)
- Workload, the controller is the one that has an overview of the current traffic situation. And in most cases sending anyone direct will directly increase the workload. (Much more conflicts when sending anyone direct)
Therefore it is his (or her) decision to send you, keeping in mind traffic that you might not even hear on the frequency, traffic that is coming on freq. in a few minutes or for instance crossing of other airspace than the ones you filed in. (That controller doesn't know you, so there could be up to 6 phonecalls to be made before you can cut let's say 3 miles off of you original route.)
- Military activity, I can only give you direct when I have it available!
This is not to defend what is going on in Spain, 'cause I haven't got a clue, I don't fly there. But it is just to let you see that giving a direct is not just at the controllers whim, and when it is, it's also (most of the time) thought through.
Saw a post from someone a while ago, went something like this:
Every flight is a possible mayday, and maydays equal a lot of paperwork. I don't like paperwork, so the sooner you leave my airspace the sooner you are someone else's possible mayday. Therefore I always try to minimise your time in my bit of airspace, so if I can...you WILL get the direct. So please stop 'requesting' directs.
Last edited by Surferboy; 25th Jul 2010 at 09:00.
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Heard on the radio in Spain. (Not in BCN or MAD, where they speak Spanish all the time. Except to foreign A/C. So all this BS about not needing to knoe the information falls) "Since your slot is at 15.35 and the time now is 15.28 you have missed your slot and you can not push" Puzzled pilot answers " Do we not have a 10 min window after the CTOT?" Spanish ATC answers (in a very superior voice) "You do not know the rules and you should know better, contact your company for a new slot"
Pilot says "I am sure we can make it within the window" ATC "No it is up to me to decide" Even more puzzled pilot asks humbly "Maybe you can help me?" Spanish ATC " No it is not my job! Cotact your company"
Heard on the radio in England. "Request push and start" this was 15 min before CTOT
"You are cleared to push and start" Guess what? There was no sequencing, only one A/C at the airport (the one taking off) and they got airborne 5 min before their CTOT. For all you non ATC/Pilots I tell you that for 30 years this has always been the case and the rules have not changed.
Pilot says "I am sure we can make it within the window" ATC "No it is up to me to decide" Even more puzzled pilot asks humbly "Maybe you can help me?" Spanish ATC " No it is not my job! Cotact your company"
Heard on the radio in England. "Request push and start" this was 15 min before CTOT
"You are cleared to push and start" Guess what? There was no sequencing, only one A/C at the airport (the one taking off) and they got airborne 5 min before their CTOT. For all you non ATC/Pilots I tell you that for 30 years this has always been the case and the rules have not changed.Join Date: Jan 2007
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Gonzo - Not sure what your point is?
teddyman - happens to me frequently. Absolute disgrace. I know Spanish ATC(O) don't care.
I don't think it is reasonable for AENA employees to behave (professionally) in this manner. Spain is on its arse - perhaps you should all be trying to dig yourselves out of this pickle?
teddyman - happens to me frequently. Absolute disgrace. I know Spanish ATC(O) don't care.
I don't think it is reasonable for AENA employees to behave (professionally) in this manner. Spain is on its arse - perhaps you should all be trying to dig yourselves out of this pickle?
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We were limited to FL 240 for 100NM when we had flight planned at FL380. So how is that keeping to the flight plan?
@411A: I understand a Tristar is the best aircraft in the world and probably the best you can have to pass through, say, an actve CB or turbulence.
I for one do not fly a tristar, so I prefer not to stay in turbulence or fly through a CB. The fact that you apparently don´t know that conditions can be quite different from forecasts tells alot about your superior airmanship. As a non-airline pilot I can only guess, but still I think FPLs are not made by pilots and usually they check in an hour or maybe 1,5 hrs prior to flight. A time at which changing your plan makes it a latefile, with the consequence of being the last in the line should a restriction come up.
Some 'pilots' indeed never learn.