Spanish ATC

[OFSO]

A substantial number of Spanish ATC staff didn't show up for work at Girona last night - some sent in sick notes, some just didn't turn up. Local papers report up to 2 hours delays on o/g flights.

We just don't care any more - what with volcanic dust, French ATC strikes, and security stupidity in Stanstead/Gatwick, my wife's swapped her monthly visits to the UK from aviation to the TGV. Twice the price - Perpignan-Paris return costs €80 first class on the train - but you get there, and on time. And a more comfortable ride that FR or EasyJet can offer.

Edit: just to be fair - sat waiting for my wife to go/arrive into GRN many times in past ten years - always found the ATC very competent.

[andrijander]

And how does making me wait until the very end of my slot help any of that?

It probably doesn't help much. I work at EUROCONTROL and, IMHO, direct routes are a bliss. The shorter time you spend in my airspace the better, the sooner I'm done and can move on to the next. However that's about to change, since we're reaching TFC levels that some sectors just can't cope with. And unfortunately keeping accurate track of those almost 5000 flights a day is impossible. We have some reasonable good tools for it but none is perfect. But that's also only in our case. It is also a bit selfish, since we are told we may be contributing in some cases to create congestions at the destination airports (one of the reasons you won't get direct to final from 300NM away during the day unless you fly to a very small airfield) We do not deal with airports directly and there's the pickle. Airports are the bottlenecks really. If an airport can only handle 80 movements an hour, that 100 aircraft arrive/wanna take off in an hour just causes delays and congestion. In theory CFMU should avoid that. Then life happens, but also I understand that is no excuse to just ditch the system altogether. As I tried to get across, controllers in Spain are way overworked, and are falling back to basics. Not justifying that, just stating it. But then again, sometimes when working close to the limit, I tend to do the same (and it works for me). Imagine you had to operate on your own, you'd probably need the full 10NM approach every time. Can't be preparing for landing, talking the R/T and flying the plane and be expected to do acrobatics at the same time (if you can do it, good for you, but not everybody can and it is not the way it should be done anyway).

Wishing you guys blue skies and safe landings,
A.

[FRying]

Andri, if what you're describing about the life at spanish ATC is true, I can understand those poor devils and there is much to worry about when flying in to/from Spain...

[McNulty]

I cant believe anyone is stupid enough to fall for stupid spanish atc union rhetoric. Simply giving them paycuts is not enough, the entire system needs to be over hauled and all the dead wood cleared out. Airlines who pay for their service, aswell as the travelling public deserve the levels of proficiency of the london controllers to be mandatory all accross europe, including spain. The only way to achieve this is to fire them and start from scratch, their current work to rule is making this an increasingly realistic outcome as the public become more aware of the problems they are causing.

[Mister Geezer]

Perhaps I have missed something, yet would it not be far better if the Spanish decided on strikes instead. The current course of action has little effect on AENA, since the aircraft are still moving in and out of their airports.

Granted, stikes will cause misery but a conclusion to the problem will probably be found sooner rather than later if such a course of action was chosen. It just seems as if the controllers are just 'pussy footing' around at the moment.

If the Spanish strike then it will cause far more disruption when compared to the French going on strike. If the French are on strike then we see use of Tango 9 and going round France to the east to get down to Spain which is a bugger but the flights still generally get to where they need to go to! If no controllers turn up for work in Spain, then nothing will move. It is a rather 'ugly' scenario, yet something needs to happen to get these controllers talking to their superiors and vice versa.

Finally for those who are filing reports on the smallest of issues concerning ATC in Spain, that is all fine and well yet how will your company follow these up? By all means, call me a pessimist yet I can not help but feel that such comments will fall on deaf ears... that is providing your company has contacts in AENA etc for following such issues up.

[Microburst2002]

hahahaha

macnulty, comeon
If that is union rhetoric, at least they write a few paragraphs. Your rhetoric, however, is so simple and so brief, and so typically childish, that it makes me laugh.
How you dare call rhetoric to what the ATCos are telling you? What the fuC do you know, my dear?
What they are telling you are facts.

Dont' you believe that teh ATCOs offered a new deal with the government regarding their salaries with a cut of around 50%? Well: that is a fact, it is not rhetoric

ANd the goverment, of course, did not accept. That is another fact.

WHY THE FUc*k DONT YOU COMPLAINT MORE ABOUT THE SPANISH GOVERNMENT? there would be amazing agreement in that!

because you are seized by media, thats why!


AND NOW, FOR THOSE WHO STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON HERE, A SUMMARY:


1- The spanish government is doing all what is doing so that situation becomes unmanageable, (or apparently unmanageable).
2- The media makes sure that every body is well aware that the situation is a chaos, and unmanageable,
3- The government sells the damned golden eggs chicken to their close friends for a tenth of what it is worth.
4- magically all things will solve quicky then. All it takes is the government to stop the auto-sabotage.

The poor ATCOs are like the christians thrown to the lions, any you are the happy audience, dont' you realise?

They have done similar things in the past, here and in other countries.

In this case, it can cost some lives too, thats the difference. But wait!! that would do a perfect "unmanageable situation" calling for an inmediate solution. The ultimate solution... You will be happy because you will have some one to blame an hang, won`t you.

[Hans Modrow]

just read that spanish ATC is one of the best payed.
round 200000 euro per year.

[JW411]

Micro:

It is always welcome to read good and reasoned argument.

Thank you.

[Del Prado]

Hans, I've also read that they're paid 750,000 euros a year. I don't believe everything I read.

Just thought I'd repeat part of Jaun's post from the previous page...

Last Friday a tower controller at LEVC that had been alone on duty had asked for got a denial for a reduction in incoming traffic. He finally fainted and was evacuated in an ambulance.

Eight of us were on sick leave last Thursday evening at LECB. Traffic flow regulations were not initially set on place, which meant that rather than the 33 aircraft per hour which is the mandated limit for a collapsed sector, there were 52. At least two of the controllers on duty that evening had anxiety attacks and went on sick leave the next day.

Controllers being evacuated by ambulance because of 'breakdowns' at work due to overloads.
Work patterns 2200-0700 then 1400-2100 then 0600-1300. 25 hours in a 39 hour period.
Reports of controllers taking their children to work because the shifts are imposed at such short notice that they can't find childcare.

Shouldn't questions be asked (instead of moaning about not getting directs)?

[McNulty]

If that is union rhetoric, at least they write a few paragraphs. Your rhetoric, however, is so simple and so brief, and so typically childish, that it makes me laugh.

Earlier in this thread i wrote a long post with a list of some of the many problems i encounter every day operating out of Barajas. The standard of control is an absolute disgrace, and is far below the standard of most of the rest of Europe.

WHY THE FUc*k DONT YOU COMPLAINT MORE ABOUT THE SPANISH GOVERNMENT?

In my earlier post i referred to the Spanish government as a "joke", is that complaint enough?

The government are the ones ultimately responsible for the terrible standard of air traffic control in their country, and are ultimately responsible for the millionaire salaries that the spanish controllers awarded themselves, downright daylight robbery of the spanish publics taxes.

because you are seized by media, thats why!

This is untrue, i dont follow the spanish media in any way whatsoever, my opinions are based on first hand experience of operating out of Spanish airports, mostly Madrid. I have been shocked at how incompetent and dangerous they are many many times.

ATC in Spain needs to be radically overhauled, new people brought in under realistic terms ands conditions and trained to far higher standards before a serious accident happens.

[Tight Seat]

'Reports of controllers taking their children to work because the shifts are imposed at such short notice that they can't find childcare'

I thought ALC were a little better on the ball last night...

[Tight Seat]

Micro etal

As for all the ' you childish pilots....don't know anything'.... well buddy it seems we are all playing in the same school yard, but your lot have taken the ball home.

Get on with it, strike ,or do what you are paid to do. Bleeding hearts don't do it for me.

[Del Prado]

There's seems a lot of clamour for the Spanish ATCOs to go on strike but I thought they lost the right to strike in the royal decree, is this correct?

[andrijander]

Take your own conclusions:

if they announce a strike, which you have to do for it to be legal, provider/government can dictate minimum service of 100% (so making strike void, so to speak).

Also they can recall you to work whenever and if you don't show they can fire you or start a disciplinary process (they can suspend your salary for as long as the investigation is ongoing...btw the investigation is made by the ANSP, so they can take as long as they want. Whilst there you're in limbo, since you can't go to court and fight the decision since you're not fired...blackmail anyone?).

In theory this all is to guarantee the service, which is the excuse they have been using to introduce the royal decree, when there was no imminent threat to it from start (it my have been better or worse, but there was service). Now controllers are 21st century slaves. The only option would be to just not go to work altogether. Let's see how much sympathy that creates amongst the public/coworkers/users/etc.. also they think"if they have done us this for nothing, what would they do then?". Unemployment in Spain is close to 20%, how many controllers can just jump out? (they're looking into going elsewhere, I can give faith to that, I've been asked several times if I've heard of offers outside Spain).

A.

[speedbird462]

approach procedures in Spain

I have just read on the national television news website that around 34% of the rostered ATCOs at Barcelona Control Centre were on sick leave today.
I am not particularly interested in the reasons for sickness but rather in the number of ATCOs rostered.
32 for en-route
14 for Approah
7 on standby
I am an approach controller myself and my question is:
do you need 14 Approach controllers for Barcelona for a morning shift? how many holds do you have and what are the complications of the airspace/conflicting traffic patterns that require 14 Approach controllers?
Please excuse me before hand if the information is not accurate and if so I would appreciate the right information.
Thanks!

[Denti]

If the spanish ATCOs are so unhappy about the working conditions as they claim to be there is not much left. Organize a strike, sick out or similar stuff or simply vote with your feet. With the salary you enjoyed in the last few years you all should have more than enough savings to survive a couple years while you can search for better jobs elsewhere. Of course that would lead to more short-term mayhem, but then there is a chance that spain might at some point get a 1st world ATC service and not the 3rd world one at double 1st world salaries they had until now.

[JW411]

So why doesn't the Spanish government just sack the whole lot of them and start all over again?

I can remember when Ronald Reagan got shot of a similar problem in the USA (where I was flying at the time based at JFK).

You will be astonished to learn that ATC in the USA absolutely blossomed as a result of this decision.

Does the Spanish government have the cojones to do the same thing?

From my point of view, I flew professionally for just over 50 years all over the world. I would have to say that the very best of Spanish ATC ability would just about equate with dealing with Addis Ababa, Cairo or Karachi on 8956 kcs at night on AM before SSB was invented in the 1960s.

I do not have one single piece of praise to offer in all the years that I had to suffer in Spanish ATC.

To quote a Mastercard joke "Probably the Worst".

[Tight Seat]

So 14 pages and nearly 35,000 views... Taking the hint yet?

[TBSC]

Someone close to those guys would advise us please why on earth they think that work to rule (= screwing hundreds of thousand pax and dozens of companies who are paying the big bill to Spain for their work) will help them and how long they wish to continue it (even if it's proved to be useless)?

Are we overloaded? Let's have fun with having the same number of airplanes (only 2-3 hrs later) in our airspace and let them be there for longer time - without directs - causing more work for ourselves. We can still be taken to the hospital at the end of the shift while millions of EUR is wasted for fuel/passenger convenience/crew duty time. But hey, that's not our money. Problem solved?

[calcagafo]

approach procedures in Spain

Hi Speedbird:

First I want to say hi to everybody, since I just registered and this is my first post.

I´ve only been working in Barcelona approach for 20 months, but here´s what I know with rwy 25R in service for landings and 25L for departures.

We have five sectors, two for initial approach and departures(one separates departing traffic going north and west and incoming traffic from the west, the other separates departing traffic going south and east and incoming traffic from the south), two feeders and one Final approach. One feeder also does the approach to LEGE(girona), this sector and final approach get three people each, the other three sectors are managed with the other 8 ATCO´s.

That´s (almost)3 atco´s per sector: one on frequency, one coordinator and one resting, we take turns every hour, wich makes 33% resting time and 66% working time.

There are 4 holds, two in the northern feeder(one for traffic coming from the west, the other one for traffic from the north ), and two in the southern feeder(south and east).

Hope this helped

How is it in London?