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Air India Express B738 crash

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Air India Express B738 crash

Old 30th May 2010, 21:40
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More importantly, I would be wanting to know why the FO didn't take over control of the aircraft. I'm surprised the TOI didn't ask that question in the article.

I wonder what policy AIX has to resolve crew conflict. I know one former carrier of mine, there was a 2 call policy. If the CA did not respond by the second deviation / concern call-out, the FO had the legal support of the company to take control and assume the CA as incapacitated.

Wish more places had such a policy.
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Old 30th May 2010, 23:01
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And all this information they got from the ATC tapes? The hero Indian Effoh was not to busy to inform ATC of all this? "Tower, I have told my Captain to go around twice, but he is not listening?"

Why did he leave Jet Airways?

They will blame the white guy.
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Old 31st May 2010, 00:01
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"Indian crash investigators are focusing on the speed and touchdown point of an Air India Express 737-8HG that crashed at Mangalore-Bajpe Airport Saturday morning, killing 158 of the 166 passengers and crew onboard. Air India Express is a low-cost subsidiary of the state-run carrier Air India. Flight IX812 was en route from Dubai to Mangalore and the crew did not report any problems with the aircraft or weather. The flight skidded off the 2,450-m. runway, plunging down a 200-ft. gorge and bursting into flames. Mangalore’s airport is located on a hilltop and the main Runway 24/06 has gorges at either end. It was India’s worst aviation disaster in 14 years. There has already been some fall out from the crash as the Indian pilot community has wasted no time in attributing the crash to the fact that the pilot was an expatriate."

CX DFO Update 28 May 2010. (underscored by me)

Just check out the views and brain dead denial on the South Asia & Far East Forum of anyone daring to comment negatively, or state some eyewitness facts & experiences about Indian Aviation. The denial is laughable, if not so damn scary. With 175 hrs TT pilots are in the RHS of a 777 (& 744 as I understand it). Or, with 175 hrs TT they DEMAND such jobs on A320, 737, 777, etc. With 1000 hrs pilots are deemed "highly experienced" (quote from Mangalore ATC). I wonder where this omniscient aviation culture stems from then, eh?

Your "expat" 20,000 hrs is not welcomed when local guys are unemployed with 175 - 250 hrs TT. In their eyes they are just as qualified.

Let's hope the person leading the inquiry is not either a) as xenophobic and / or b) open to corruption.
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Old 31st May 2010, 01:17
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TopTup:
Let's hope the person leading the inquiry is not either a) as xenophobic and / or b) open to corruption.
Hope springs eternal.
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Old 31st May 2010, 04:55
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Mon, May 31 09:20 AM

Jammu, May 30 -- A major air tragedy was averted on Sunday, when an Indigo airlines flight from Srinagar aborted landing at Jammu airport and became air borne again. This incident took place at around 1.55 pm.
The aircraft managed to land successfully in a second attempt. 123 passengers were on board the Indigo airlines flight from Srinagar to Delhi via Jammu.

"At the time of landing Air Traffic Control (ATC) officials cancelled the landing clearance and the aircraft had to take off again and after that getting clearance from ATC again, the air craft landed successfully," said Indigo Airlines Manager Dev Prateen Choudhary

Sources at the airport said, "The aircraft over-flew from the actual landing area and the pilot of the aircraft showed his extraordinary skills and was able to save the lives of people when he managed to take off again after seeing that he had over flew (sic) from the actual landing zone." Rejecting the claims of Indigo airlines that ATC cancelled the clearance for landing at the last moment, an ATC official, requesting anonymity, said, "We had given the clearance to the aircraft for landing.



I especially like the way the pilot showed extraordinary skills to avert a disaster.

Last edited by rspilot; 31st May 2010 at 04:57. Reason: a
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Old 31st May 2010, 07:05
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Why doesnt the co pilot take over??

Being a CRMI in a private airline I sometimes wonder at the problems faced by co pilots in decision making... there is so much fear to act ... and so overwhelming is the thought of repercussions that the question keeps coming to my mind... inspite of the third warning with no response being indicative of subtle pilot incapacition

why didnt the copilot take over? can any copilot answer this question???
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Old 31st May 2010, 07:53
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Standard 2 call protocol in Jet ! after which the first takes over regardless of the age and experience of the capt.

whatever the case the F/O in this case SHOULD HAVE taken over after calling him twice !!! no exceptions .

RIP
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Old 31st May 2010, 09:52
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How on earth can a First Officer take command from a Captain who doesn't wish to relinquish same?
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Old 31st May 2010, 10:48
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How on earth can a First Officer take command from a Captain who doesn't wish to relinquish same?
was thinking the same thing. 2 ppl fighting over control hmm...... whoever is closer to the crash axe wins i guess.
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Old 31st May 2010, 10:51
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Gents,

Until you have witnessed an illustrious "Cmdr" belittle and humiliate an FO at dispatch and continue the barrage in the cockpit then it is very difficult to appreciate the CRM culture at AI. This is and was not a one-off event, but regular: all be it at varying degrees and levels.

When I spoke to the Capt about it he all but abused me stating "you foreigners do not understand...." Damn right I don't. As a CRMI in other airlines, trying to reason with this fool was impossible. He didn't want to listen. In his mind he didn't have to.

That same FO sat there and copped it. All the while "Yes sir, Yes sir, Yes sir....." He then thanked the Cmdr for the flight afterward.

PF / PM roles are ignored with the Cmdr (on the VERY rare event of allowing the FO a t/o or landing) will, when as PM, randomly manipulate the MCP, select speed brake, change the speed...or as PF do the RT requesting track shortening, wx avoidance, their own flap and gear, and so on and so on..... Boeing FCOM Areas of Responsibility? HA!

Do some reading on "social norms" and then the social structure, etc in India (caste system, hierarchical roles in society, perceived "respect" that must be given right or wrongly so....) and you'll be able to appreciate but a small amount of the culture at AI. In Asian nations the "loosing face" issue is also by and large to blame. Hence a "Cmdr" will vary rarely heed the advice, ask for let alone accept a junior's (FO or others') input.

And what happens? The same is repeated onto the next generation.

Before some state that I am picking on AI: Yes, you are right because this is what the thread is about and I witnessed / experienced it for 2 years; and secondly, I admit other airlines in [western] nations also have long histories of poor CRM training, differing abilities to influence social (personal and airline) norms, arrogant and autocratic Capts as well as FO's.

I was ignorant that such behavior could exist until I witnessed it.

[Airline] CULTURE and SOCIAL NORMS affect safety and training. The ability to WANT to change, to WANT to learn, to WANT to look from the outside in is lost on many. In our profession (becoming more and more a lose term) the end results can be fatal to many.

From the latest incident reports surfacing the Swiss Cheese slices are still lining up. Let's hope for a resounding change. It'll take at least a generational shift away from such behavior. KAL ring a bell, anyone?
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Old 31st May 2010, 10:56
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AI Express flight plunges 6,000 feet

AI Express flight plunges 6,000 feet- TIMESNOW.tv - Latest Breaking News, Big News Stories, News Videos
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Old 31st May 2010, 11:28
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TopTup,

sounds a bit like some Turkish Capt's I have seen in action, and if we go back 10yrs some Italian too.

Regretably the "old guard" still exists in many countries, particularly those where a large percentage of Commanders are ex-military/ legacy carrier bred.

There is a vast chasm between being in command, and inflicting this status on all around you regardless of the consequences.
Some nations/cultures , historically, have more difficulty to find the middle ground than others, and that won't change any time soon.
The other side of the coin is that it is quite degrading to have someone try to force their viewpoint just because they happen to have the same nationality as the carrier you are flying for, but for sure they won't find any evidence of that in their cosy insular investigation.
Just because the one on the right was squaking doesn't mean he was right, some F/O's I have flown with who were expecting a command sometime soon could be a right pain in the jacksy, this could also have been the case here.
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Old 31st May 2010, 11:34
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Thumbs up Air India CRASH

"Not always so, unfortunately. During a simulator session the FMS was made inoperative prior to a VOR/DME approach. The purpose was to give the crew currency in using radio aids to navigation. The captain virtually downed tools and said it was not possible to carry out the instrument approach without the FMS. He was wrong. It was, but he did not know how to fly a straight forward VOR/DME approach including the DME arc. Later the FMS was restored but the IRS was unable to update and cockpit indications revealed the present position was actually 15 miles from the correct geographical position." Unquote
My comment about automation was related to the bravehearts who wanted to handfly from TOD to touch down.Also in your above example it is not quite correct to quote a simulator exercise because the aircraft and the sim behave quite differently and the guy at the back can make you lose Situational awareness in no time. Even by doing a simple thing like increasing speed at 2X ,inorder to cover more syllabus, you can put the trainee off and create loss of SA.
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Old 31st May 2010, 15:28
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How on earth can a First Officer take command from a Captain who doesn't wish to relinquish same?
Quite simple really and I don't know why airlines do not include this in their operations manuals. If it is quite obvious that the captain has ignored repeated calls from the first officer to go-around and is intent in pressing on regardless then desperate measures are called for to prevent a certain accident.

The first officer must loudly call "GO-AROUND CAPTAIN" and simultaneously retract the landing gear. Under those circumstances no captain, no matter how culture driven will then press on and deliberately do a belly landing.

Having now forced a go-around, the first officer will probably be blamed for the go-around and have to face the consequences. That all depends on management culture. But as second in command he has taken a responsible action and by doing so possibly saved an accident. If anyone can think of another sure-fire way for a first officer to prevent a potentially deadly unstable approach by the captain then let's have it now on Pprune. Just remember there are some types of captain who think that real men never go around. They walk among us...
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Old 31st May 2010, 15:42
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Centaurus
Following such a scenario, all can be revealed by pulling the QAR after the next landing, even if the CVR has been wiped.
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Old 31st May 2010, 15:48
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Um at the risk of upsetting the Mods.

Final Approach, by John J Nance, gives an interesting take on CRM and how even a hesitation by the co-pilot can lead to disaster.

worth a read by those who do not believe in CRM.
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Old 31st May 2010, 16:00
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Just pushing the thrust levers to go around power worked for me one night when the captain was high and fast on a short runway with heavy rain. You may be looking for a job later so make sure you are prepared for that. I was.
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Old 31st May 2010, 16:05
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As Centauraus has said, raising the gear is a fairly definitive method of indicating your intent as an FO. Better would be to select Flap 15, hit the TOGA button and then raise the gear. If the 'Cmdr' tries to pull the power levers back, a well placed foot will keep full power on the aircraft. The power will cause the aircraft to pitch up and a climb is inevitable. What happens next is entirely a matter of conjecture but quite often the realisation that one has phucked up is quite enough to allow the situation to be taken out of one's hands. Indeed, research has shown that most of the culprits will meekly submit to the new circumstances when the inevitable has been brought home to them. I know it takes a brave man to take such action but until this course of action becomes the norm in an extreme situation, these accidents will continue. Training, culture, education must be altered in ALL airlines to reflect this as accepted behaivour amongst pilots, be they LH or RH seat.
From what I have read so far, I would apportion a great deal of the blame, if blame needs to be apportioned, on the inadequate, arrogant and misguided management of the company, from the very top down to the Chief Pilot/Training Captains. Forcing Captains to write a safety report after a Go-around is simply ridiculous and goes to the very heart of this easily preventable accident.
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Old 31st May 2010, 16:43
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I wonder what policy AIX has to resolve crew conflict. I know one former carrier of mine, there was a 2 call policy. If the CA did not respond by the second deviation / concern call-out, the FO had the legal support of the company to take control and assume the CA as incapacitated.
Seems like United has had the two call policy since at least the early '80's. It was also part of an old gouge interview answer about what you did if the captain insisted on busting minimums. Newer interview questions seem to be more like what you do if the captain is wearing a dress to dinner (sadly, I'm not joking on this one ).

Until you have witnessed an illustrious "Cmdr" belittle and humiliate an FO at dispatch and continue the barrage in the cockpit then it is very difficult to appreciate the CRM culture at AI. This is and was not a one-off event, but regular: all be it at varying degrees and levels.
Some of this is indeed cultural in my view. As an American, I'll certainly talk back and I want the folks who fly with me to speak up if they think I am wrong about an operational matter. In other cultures this might be viewed as weak leadership or disrespect.

Forcing Captains to write a safety report after a Go-around is simply ridiculous and goes to the very heart of this easily preventable accident.
At a lot of U.S. companies, you don't have to write a report if you elect to go around, but if you land out of an unstable approach you'd better be doing ASAP's and NASA reports and hope the feds decide your disregard of the rules was not 'intentional'. Kinda the reverse of a couple of decades ago when it was considered heroic to salvage the approach and save the company the cost of a go around.
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Old 31st May 2010, 16:59
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jpsingh:

"Even by doing a simple thing like increasing speed at 2X in order to cover more syllabus".

Sir, you really have to be joking. All tests in the simulator for a very long time now have had to be conducted in "real time". If that is not your experience, then you should complain at the highest international level.

Incidentally, I have experience as a TRI/TRE of teaching and examining for two separate FE airlines.

The most bizarre problem that I ever came across was a young captain that came into my hands. The upgrade to the equipment involved was a huge step for him and he was unfamiliar with the concept of the possibility that the captain might be wrong.

Despite failing his first course, he had "tidy hands" and I was convinced that he had a future. We did the best part of another course and he passed.

I next came across him when he came for a LOFT/LPC renewal and he was absolutely brilliant for all of the two days in the sim. He had obviously listened, learned and put into practice what I had taught him. Since I have always believed in writing and saying things exactly as they happen, I gave him an "Above Average" on his airline's company paperwork.

A few weeks later, I was told that I simply could not do this because the young man concerned now had a higher assessment than that of the chief pilot and would I please rewrite the paperwork to reflect this?

I refused.
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