Air India Express B738 crash
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
100BMEP the real truth is most pilots are not only capable of hand flying any aircraft they enjoy it.
I understand the " magenta line " concept also but it is only another aid just like using the B.F.O. position on an ADF or doing a star shot with the Astro compass.
I guess I was just to old to be a child of the magenta line.
I would like to see them bring back the Radio Range.....something that does not require hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of magic boxes to use.
True happiness was finding the cone of silence.
I understand the " magenta line " concept also but it is only another aid just like using the B.F.O. position on an ADF or doing a star shot with the Astro compass.
I guess I was just to old to be a child of the magenta line.
I would like to see them bring back the Radio Range.....something that does not require hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of magic boxes to use.
True happiness was finding the cone of silence.
How About MDF?
I would like to see them bring back the Radio Range.....something that does not require hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of magic boxes to use.
Nevertheless, without some basic stick and throttle skills, pilots can find themselves in real trouble. Think about Buffalo, Amsterdam, Tripoli, and now Mangalore. All the final reports are not out but all of these seem to be about a lack of basic flying ability.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am going to exit this thread because I am posting to much here.
But I would like to make one more comment and that is I find it very difficult to try and get through to those who are limited by having only been exposed to modern technology and the resulting SOP's in place today that are designed to make flying an exercise that is as safe as SOP's can make flying.
Where it sometimes comes off the rails is when something that is not covered in SOP's happens.
That is where experience comes into play, like in that loss of controls in the Jet in Sioux City Iowa some years ago.
How would the children of the magenta line have fared in that airplane?
But I would like to make one more comment and that is I find it very difficult to try and get through to those who are limited by having only been exposed to modern technology and the resulting SOP's in place today that are designed to make flying an exercise that is as safe as SOP's can make flying.
Where it sometimes comes off the rails is when something that is not covered in SOP's happens.
That is where experience comes into play, like in that loss of controls in the Jet in Sioux City Iowa some years ago.
How would the children of the magenta line have fared in that airplane?
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Currently unemployed and live in my parents basement
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe that machaca answered Chuck's question about the Sioux City accident.
Last edited by rspilot; 25th May 2010 at 02:46. Reason: spelling
I believe that machaca answered Chuck's question about the Sioux City accident
Absolutely.
Embrace technology.
if so, says it all.
" Those who ignore History are doomed to repeat it " ( or something like that )
You won't crash on the field because the vis has dropped.
Totally agree, but ...... I may be tempted to start an approach if I'm not told that the vis. / RVR has dropped, and when reaching MDA commence an overshoot ( Go Around ! ) and ....... then find that we have another problem, or issue, that creates a scenario that results in an accident, whereas if I had never even considered making an approach - having been told that the airfield was below minima - I might well be at a different height, in another place, where the second problem would not be a problem, or could more easily be dealt with.
One could hypothesise for ever, but a crew can only make a decision based on the facts presented to them, and if they are told that the RVR is above minima, why wouldn't they start an approach - all else being equal - why give pilots false info ?
No pilot deliberately flies into the ground, or mountain, he flies into the ground because he is convinced it isn't there, from clues presented to him from a variety of sources, some mechanical, some audio, some electronic, some visual, some from other humans, and if those clues are false he makes the wrong decision - and is usually not around to explain, so the easy answer for those really at fault ( maybe ) is to blame him / her.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: earth
Posts: 266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Siena
Age: 70
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
autobrake setting
Somebody mentioned a possible insufficient autobrake setting on landing.
Many guys seem unaware of this(RTFM), but you can up select and down select any autobrake setting on (737/47/57/67/77) during landing . So if you land with 2 and it isn't enough, just change it to 3, 4 or MAX.
Many guys seem unaware of this(RTFM), but you can up select and down select any autobrake setting on (737/47/57/67/77) during landing . So if you land with 2 and it isn't enough, just change it to 3, 4 or MAX.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Camel jockey
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe the ATC controller was following the book, but my question later was - if the RVR was reducing below legal minima one dark and dirty night, would they not tell me until 10 minutes after I had crashed on the field ?
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: earth
Posts: 266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air India employees on flash strike ..
Air India crew, engineers on flash strike; 10 flights cancelled - India - The Times of India
Although the reason stated for the "flash strike" is delayed salary payments, another news article has reported that the strike is because of a gag order on AI employees ...
.
.
Gag order timing wrong, say Air India staff - India - ibnlive
Although the reason stated for the "flash strike" is delayed salary payments, another news article has reported that the strike is because of a gag order on AI employees ...
.
.
Gag order timing wrong, say Air India staff - India - ibnlive
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: sunshine
Age: 70
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AI Express Tragedy
[This thread is becoming vague...Professional Pilots Rumour Network.. ? The essence of an accident inquiry,the what,how and why of the accident investigation has taken a back seat while there are arguements(yes thats the correct word) since discussion is between informed,educated and informed individuals.
We are talking about low standards of Aviation in India/ terrible infrastructure/corruption at all levels.Well arent these all known to people who come to work in India.
Also in this age of Globalisation, the word expat has achieved a different meaning altogether. Earlier, expat only meant someone from the developed world (Europe/UK/US/Canada/Australia etc..etc) but today an expat also includes an Indian flying in Emirates, a Pakistani in Singapore and a Korean in Oman. The definition has changed. Anyone who aspires to a better living standard or wants an exposure to living elsewhere...as long he /she can meet the required standards and satify the regulatory authorities,why must that individual be denied the right to work in that country.
On a personal level I can say that hand flying is great as long as you dont make it a personal commitment and an ego issue.Automation is great and has been paid for and definitely increases SITUATIONAL AWARENESS and contributes to Flight Safety.
It has often been said that the pilot community is its own biggest enemy....did I hear that right. On a lighter vein..Also the pilots of today have become gynocologists..they have made a profession out of what was essentially meant to be an act of fun!!!...Cheers and happy landings !!!
We are talking about low standards of Aviation in India/ terrible infrastructure/corruption at all levels.Well arent these all known to people who come to work in India.
Also in this age of Globalisation, the word expat has achieved a different meaning altogether. Earlier, expat only meant someone from the developed world (Europe/UK/US/Canada/Australia etc..etc) but today an expat also includes an Indian flying in Emirates, a Pakistani in Singapore and a Korean in Oman. The definition has changed. Anyone who aspires to a better living standard or wants an exposure to living elsewhere...as long he /she can meet the required standards and satify the regulatory authorities,why must that individual be denied the right to work in that country.
On a personal level I can say that hand flying is great as long as you dont make it a personal commitment and an ego issue.Automation is great and has been paid for and definitely increases SITUATIONAL AWARENESS and contributes to Flight Safety.
It has often been said that the pilot community is its own biggest enemy....did I hear that right. On a lighter vein..Also the pilots of today have become gynocologists..they have made a profession out of what was essentially meant to be an act of fun!!!...Cheers and happy landings !!!
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
These discussions seem to show a mindset among some pilots that would appear to try and justify minimum level competence in far to many airlines to the point many pilots will go out of their way to justify almost any incident / accident that points to a lack of skills and or poor decision making in two crew airplanes.
There is an ongoing very toxic discussion on a Canadian forum that is disturbing to see in a group of pilots who are flying the public around for a major airline, the depth of denial by some of these pilots is as I said, disturbing to say the least.
Maybe the time has come for me to quit reading this stuff now that I am retired?
There is an ongoing very toxic discussion on a Canadian forum that is disturbing to see in a group of pilots who are flying the public around for a major airline, the depth of denial by some of these pilots is as I said, disturbing to say the least.
Maybe the time has come for me to quit reading this stuff now that I am retired?
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Canada
Posts: 819
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chuck, you make some VERY valid points. So, I wouldn't despair if I were you.
May I comment on your earlier Sioux City question?
If today's pilot was trained on that aircraft and showed up to work with the same CRM skill set as United Airlines of that day showed up with, AND a qualified training Captain was seated in a now non-existent First Class section, then my guess is that they'd possibly do just as well.
Here's the caveat. (Please, I'm assuming a non third
crew)
Today?
In a 3rd or 4th generation aircraft, you aren't likely to lose the Hydraulic system fluid because of check valves in the lines, so we're back to square one. This accident practically mandated these check valves so it isn't likely to happen.
I agree with and understand your remarks. We need to instill in this generation of pilot the necessity of being able to accurately hand fly the machine. Unfortunately, you have to be a master of the automation before you can masterfully use a "voice activated" AFCS. To degenerate this generation of aircraft to attitude, airspeed and ball is probably unwarranted and a waste of time. The DC3 and DC4 era of much higher failure rates is ancient history and therefore shouldn't dictate the need for these sharpened skills, but with a valid flight director and hand flown obedience, these skills can certainly come in handy.
As a footnote to the United DC-10 at Sioux City, it was a four man flight deck on a three man aeroplane with beyond the normal CRM, MCC contributions. Hand flying the S.o.B. was a serious challenge and let's be honest, there wasn't much hand flying going on. There was however, some serious 'creative' manual flying going on and if they hadn't chopped the thrust on landing it probably would have made a greaser instead of a cartwheel. Capt. Haines presentation is awesome.
May I comment on your earlier Sioux City question?
If today's pilot was trained on that aircraft and showed up to work with the same CRM skill set as United Airlines of that day showed up with, AND a qualified training Captain was seated in a now non-existent First Class section, then my guess is that they'd possibly do just as well.
Here's the caveat. (Please, I'm assuming a non third
crew)Today?
In a 3rd or 4th generation aircraft, you aren't likely to lose the Hydraulic system fluid because of check valves in the lines, so we're back to square one. This accident practically mandated these check valves so it isn't likely to happen.
I agree with and understand your remarks. We need to instill in this generation of pilot the necessity of being able to accurately hand fly the machine. Unfortunately, you have to be a master of the automation before you can masterfully use a "voice activated" AFCS. To degenerate this generation of aircraft to attitude, airspeed and ball is probably unwarranted and a waste of time. The DC3 and DC4 era of much higher failure rates is ancient history and therefore shouldn't dictate the need for these sharpened skills, but with a valid flight director and hand flown obedience, these skills can certainly come in handy.
As a footnote to the United DC-10 at Sioux City, it was a four man flight deck on a three man aeroplane with beyond the normal CRM, MCC contributions. Hand flying the S.o.B. was a serious challenge and let's be honest, there wasn't much hand flying going on. There was however, some serious 'creative' manual flying going on and if they hadn't chopped the thrust on landing it probably would have made a greaser instead of a cartwheel. Capt. Haines presentation is awesome.
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 25th May 2010 at 21:52.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 67
Posts: 1,777
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi,
Black boxes found ! ?
Great .. so if luck .. some will be know about this accident in a month ..
Black boxes found ! ?
Great .. so if luck .. some will be know about this accident in a month ..