Air India Express B738 crash
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If the collective intellect of Indian Aviation thinks the way to solve (although hide is a better term) their safety problems is to label expats as persona non grata then I say, give it a go. 
Show the world what you've got!!
All expats out!!! Leave the Indians to their own devices and when inability, inexperience, lack of infrastructure, and egos of the incompetent expose one of the most corrupt, appauling, and disasterous aviation systems on the planet we can all step back and with our very clear and HARD english accents, say "we told you so".
Is this really a sensible way...or method of dealing with the present day realities facing Indian aviation?
I'm not knowing.
Ooops, I should have said, I don't know.
Show the world what you've got!!
All expats out!!! Leave the Indians to their own devices and when inability, inexperience, lack of infrastructure, and egos of the incompetent expose one of the most corrupt, appauling, and disasterous aviation systems on the planet we can all step back and with our very clear and HARD english accents, say "we told you so".
Is this really a sensible way...or method of dealing with the present day realities facing Indian aviation?
I'm not knowing.
Ooops, I should have said, I don't know.
Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 22nd May 2010 at 18:43.
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If the collective intellect of Indian Aviation is to solve the problem by labelliing expats as personna non grata then, so be it.
Previously, certain states have had issue with poor maintenance and authorative oversight being the cause of incidents and accident. The grand resolve: ban of aircraft in public transport over 20 years of age.
"That'll solve the problem!"
It hasnt and it wont.
These states have often mainted higher incident rates because of the desire to focus 'blame' outside of political cause and circumstance.
By the time the investigating bodies have concluded and published their findings, of which the NTSB will have involvement as the accident aircraft is manufactured and certified under the FAA, there will have been moves to project the 'blame' into certain quarters and legislation, if not draft legislation will have either been passed or will be underway.
Already, on this thread alone, there have been assumptions and moves to project the cause and circumstance toward being an expat PIC.
Frankly, that is utter bolleaux.
It is an insult and slur to the deceased involved the accident, both passengers and crew. It is an insult to the families of the deceased.
In a professional environment, only the FACTS should be the basis of discussion into contributory factors, resolution and prevention.
Anything else allows future recurrence and a failure to prevention of future occurence.
Until the CVR & DFDR data is processed and anlysed it is all suppostion and conjecture.
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To All Expats in India
Hey Guys,
Please don't hold all of the Indians victim of some Jack
's comments. I'm an Indian, I'm a pilot & I'm looking for work & still I think expats are fine working here. Any one saying that shouldn't be proud of their own heritage & freedom of democracy, where an employer has right to recruit whom he wants. As far as any company wants you, you are welcome in my country & should stay as long as you are needed. Unionism is not a successful phenomenon in this century. Sooner people understand it the better.
In my opinion, aviation is a worldwide profession, any one, from any where should be allowed to go & work any place he is required.
Please don't hold all of the Indians victim of some Jack
's comments. I'm an Indian, I'm a pilot & I'm looking for work & still I think expats are fine working here. Any one saying that shouldn't be proud of their own heritage & freedom of democracy, where an employer has right to recruit whom he wants. As far as any company wants you, you are welcome in my country & should stay as long as you are needed. Unionism is not a successful phenomenon in this century. Sooner people understand it the better. In my opinion, aviation is a worldwide profession, any one, from any where should be allowed to go & work any place he is required.
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What is flt time from departure to destination?
Did crew fly legs prior?
What segment was this in the trip series. First, middle, last leg? How many legs had crew flown together?
Did crew fly legs prior?
What segment was this in the trip series. First, middle, last leg? How many legs had crew flown together?
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FAA Audit of DGCA
1/ I wonder if any of the Indian Captains wanting the expats out of India would care to mention the initial failure of audit carried out by the FAA on the DGCA. If not rectified this would have resulted in VT registered aircraft being banned from US airspace. EU authorities would have followed suit as a matter of course.
2/ What did the SOPs of IX say about crew landing at Mangalore. Was it "captains only", or could this leg and landing been the co-pilots? If so, maybe the captain was unable to correct
the problem in the time available.
3/ Having flown in India for some time, I agree with comments above about poor ATC, RT from local pilots, poor airmanship and bad training for local staff. Many local pilots with 210hrs and multi IF rating are recruited by local companies and put in right hand seat of sophisticated jet aircraft.
2/ What did the SOPs of IX say about crew landing at Mangalore. Was it "captains only", or could this leg and landing been the co-pilots? If so, maybe the captain was unable to correct
the problem in the time available.
3/ Having flown in India for some time, I agree with comments above about poor ATC, RT from local pilots, poor airmanship and bad training for local staff. Many local pilots with 210hrs and multi IF rating are recruited by local companies and put in right hand seat of sophisticated jet aircraft.
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alphabravocharlie1 - your last post has to be one of those few posts that has absolutely nothing useful in it-well done, I'm impressed that you could, without any evidence decide the crash is a direct result of an expat flying! Either that or you're jumping to conclusions because it suits your view of reality. Then you tell a guy who has actually flown with the captain that he has missed the point, presumably because his comments don't suit your view of reality.
Have you considered a career in crash investigation, as i think you can be relied on to always come to the same conclusions??
Which are you- arrogant or stupid?
Have you considered a career in crash investigation, as i think you can be relied on to always come to the same conclusions??
Which are you- arrogant or stupid?
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Originally Posted by wileydog3
What is flt time from departure to destination?
Did crew fly legs prior?
What segment was this in the trip series. First, middle, last leg? How many legs had crew flown together?
Did crew fly legs prior?
What segment was this in the trip series. First, middle, last leg? How many legs had crew flown together?
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Well... time will tell as to the fate of the expat. FATAs expire on the 31st of July. Will the DCGA renew or not renew the FATAs? That is the question. Will the Indian airlines who employ expats such as Spice Jet, Jet Airways, India Express, to name a few sit idly if the DGCA does not renew the FATAs? I don't think these airlines who are recovering from poor economic times desire to take a slide back.
Perhaps the locals should realize the presence of the expats is to allow the locals to get up to speed so they can operate their own aircraft in a manner deemed to be safe in accordance with their respective airlines' SOPs and DGCA regulations.
Again, time will tell.
On a side note... back in March an expat took ill during a QTA from Cochin to Doah. The Times of India, a propaganda rag, labled the first officer as a hero for single handedly landing the Jet. The article failed to mention that the captain was in the cockpit during the landing and the first officer, by the miracle of the Sky Gods, was able to engage Autopilot "B" for a successful auto land. The captain taxied to the gate without any event. What can I say... thank god for Microsoft simulator pilots. Keep pushing those buttons.
Perhaps the locals should realize the presence of the expats is to allow the locals to get up to speed so they can operate their own aircraft in a manner deemed to be safe in accordance with their respective airlines' SOPs and DGCA regulations.
Again, time will tell.
On a side note... back in March an expat took ill during a QTA from Cochin to Doah. The Times of India, a propaganda rag, labled the first officer as a hero for single handedly landing the Jet. The article failed to mention that the captain was in the cockpit during the landing and the first officer, by the miracle of the Sky Gods, was able to engage Autopilot "B" for a successful auto land. The captain taxied to the gate without any event. What can I say... thank god for Microsoft simulator pilots. Keep pushing those buttons.
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iflytb20 said
So this is an all night trip as a single trip, not, for example, day 2 of a 4 day series? And Mangalore is a crew domincile?
Mangalore-Dubai-Mangalore with 7.5 hrs flying with about a 12 hr duty period?
Tough night.
The crew normally operate VOML-OMDB-VOML. It is about 3:45 hrs per leg with an hour long halt at Dubai. So this was their second leg of the night.
Mangalore-Dubai-Mangalore with 7.5 hrs flying with about a 12 hr duty period?
Tough night.
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I was going to pick on a few sweeping comments and a few naive posters but after a coffee and a moments contemplation I'll generalise instead.
To those who believe that expat pilots are somehow less safe or a causal factor in any accident is a fallacy. While expat/local animosity in all industries has been around for time immemorial and, in aviation has the potential to adversely affect cockpit culture the reality is that "expats" wherever they may be can fly just as well, or badly, as any "local" pilot. For sure "expats" stuff up - take EK in MEL for example, but take a look at Garuda, Adam Air, Turkish or American and then try to tell me experienced locals don't make fatal errors of judgement also.
Attention needs to be focused on recruitment and check & training standards of airlines (and some DCA's) to improve safety rather than resorting to criminallisation of individuals or groups.
To those who believe that expat pilots are somehow less safe or a causal factor in any accident is a fallacy. While expat/local animosity in all industries has been around for time immemorial and, in aviation has the potential to adversely affect cockpit culture the reality is that "expats" wherever they may be can fly just as well, or badly, as any "local" pilot. For sure "expats" stuff up - take EK in MEL for example, but take a look at Garuda, Adam Air, Turkish or American and then try to tell me experienced locals don't make fatal errors of judgement also.
Attention needs to be focused on recruitment and check & training standards of airlines (and some DCA's) to improve safety rather than resorting to criminallisation of individuals or groups.
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It's a long shot, but retrieving all electronic devices, especially cell phones and cameras, and trying to retrieve its memory, in the hopes of finding a recorded video from an incident/accident, would provide valuable information for the investigation.
Has it been done before? Or at least, are there legal implications that would hamper its use in the benefit of aviation safety?
Has it been done before? Or at least, are there legal implications that would hamper its use in the benefit of aviation safety?
So, yes, if some videos can be recovered from the wreckage, they might be pretty useful, even if the cassettes are broken or whatever, and it has been done before.
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Can any of you intelligent people tell me what FDTL rules are followed in India cause when I checked here CIVIL AVIATION REQUIREMENTS under Series J Part 3 I saw something like 'Kept in Abeyance'
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Originally Posted by Capt Apache
tell me what FDTL rules are followed in India cause when I checked here CIVIL AVIATION REQUIREMENTS under Series J Part 3 I saw something like 'Kept in Abeyance'
When the new rule was put under Abeyance, everyone rolled back to the old one.
Originally Posted by wileydog3
So this is an all night trip as a single trip, not, for example, day 2 of a 4 day series? And Mangalore is a crew domincile?
Mangalore-Dubai-Mangalore with 7.5 hrs flying with about a 12 hr duty period?
Tough night.
Mangalore-Dubai-Mangalore with 7.5 hrs flying with about a 12 hr duty period?
Tough night.
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It is especially frustrating ….
When underdeveloped countries fail to learn the same aviation mistakes made and corrected in developed countries long before. The information is there, it’s free for everyone and easily adopted. Unfortunately the arrogance of stupidity and greed will not be denied. How many more have to die before common sense will prevail?
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Latest is that the a/c veered off centreline and wing struck something..ILS antenna?They then tried to get airborne again but they had a tail strike..speed below unstick, confirming that they were already well into deceleration and HAD ACTIVATED TR's(fair assumption-they landed long by all accounts and PF would have been anxious to get reversers asap).
ALso lot of talk on NDTV about Mangalore not complying with ICAO guidelines for tabletop airports...runoff was only 90m apparently before the ravine.HAvent been to this airport so cannnot confirm.
If you read between the lines and tread carefully you might reasonably come up with...a/c landed long at F40 and autobrake 2,perhaps 3.Pilot realises AB setting is insufficient and goes for manual braking...tire burst causes the veer and a/c hits antenna.With speed below unstick and perhaps at least one main gear off the concrete the attempt at a rwy GA is doomed.TR's must be assumed to have been activated..but immediately cancelled after controllability problem and forward GA thrust applied(asymmetrical spool-up further aggravates controllability).
I do know that SWA had their AB system de-activated at one point because they wanted the pilots to "feel" the aircraft under their toes.I also know that AB usage is mandated by SOP worldwide,esp ASia.In fact,full use of automation in everything is standard SOP throughout Asia.I have flown with pilots who have never felt the aircraft under their toes during landing.Some with 3000-4000 hours..all those hours and theyve never braked the damn thing themselves.Initial application is key..the point is not to "jump" on the pedals but ease into it initially and then go for max if needed.If youve never done it,you wont know will you?I never use AB myself except during strong x-wind ops.SOP's are clearly wrong here.Pilots must master manual braking first before relying on automatic.Your first attempt at a max manual stop should not be in a situation when you need it most.Line pilots can hone their skills in a semi-max manual stop on a long runway with light gross weights and low OAT..in this way theyre prepared for when they will really need the technique.If you're flat-footed about it and initial application is asymetrical and/or brutal,you'll wind up in trouble.I dont know if the tire burst was due to the tire itself or incorrect technique but I suspect a combination of the two.
Another misnomer here is the co-pilot had 66 landings at the airport..did he?Apparently the airline involved has this dreaded assisted TO and Landing SOP plus the airport is Captains only landing.So he didnt have 66 landings at Mangalore at all.8000' of concrete(even if tabletop) and outside monsoon season is no reason to restrict to Captains only.If in monsoon season,Id agree yes.
Expat vs local argument..any pilot can screw up.End of story.Nobody is infallible.Lets keep race out of this.No,the real culprit here is SOP vs Airmanship.This battle between the two permeates almost every crash.I firmly believe that.Recovery from hot/high and manual braking technique are examples of where airmanship and SOP's diverge.SOP's outlaw both but theyre both vital aspects of airmanship.Yes,a GA before touchdown(SOP) would have averted disaster here but what if you're low on fuel and your alternate is closing in.SOP is dogmatic.Airmanship is a pilots ability to adapt to the real world.
ALso lot of talk on NDTV about Mangalore not complying with ICAO guidelines for tabletop airports...runoff was only 90m apparently before the ravine.HAvent been to this airport so cannnot confirm.
If you read between the lines and tread carefully you might reasonably come up with...a/c landed long at F40 and autobrake 2,perhaps 3.Pilot realises AB setting is insufficient and goes for manual braking...tire burst causes the veer and a/c hits antenna.With speed below unstick and perhaps at least one main gear off the concrete the attempt at a rwy GA is doomed.TR's must be assumed to have been activated..but immediately cancelled after controllability problem and forward GA thrust applied(asymmetrical spool-up further aggravates controllability).
I do know that SWA had their AB system de-activated at one point because they wanted the pilots to "feel" the aircraft under their toes.I also know that AB usage is mandated by SOP worldwide,esp ASia.In fact,full use of automation in everything is standard SOP throughout Asia.I have flown with pilots who have never felt the aircraft under their toes during landing.Some with 3000-4000 hours..all those hours and theyve never braked the damn thing themselves.Initial application is key..the point is not to "jump" on the pedals but ease into it initially and then go for max if needed.If youve never done it,you wont know will you?I never use AB myself except during strong x-wind ops.SOP's are clearly wrong here.Pilots must master manual braking first before relying on automatic.Your first attempt at a max manual stop should not be in a situation when you need it most.Line pilots can hone their skills in a semi-max manual stop on a long runway with light gross weights and low OAT..in this way theyre prepared for when they will really need the technique.If you're flat-footed about it and initial application is asymetrical and/or brutal,you'll wind up in trouble.I dont know if the tire burst was due to the tire itself or incorrect technique but I suspect a combination of the two.
Another misnomer here is the co-pilot had 66 landings at the airport..did he?Apparently the airline involved has this dreaded assisted TO and Landing SOP plus the airport is Captains only landing.So he didnt have 66 landings at Mangalore at all.8000' of concrete(even if tabletop) and outside monsoon season is no reason to restrict to Captains only.If in monsoon season,Id agree yes.
Expat vs local argument..any pilot can screw up.End of story.Nobody is infallible.Lets keep race out of this.No,the real culprit here is SOP vs Airmanship.This battle between the two permeates almost every crash.I firmly believe that.Recovery from hot/high and manual braking technique are examples of where airmanship and SOP's diverge.SOP's outlaw both but theyre both vital aspects of airmanship.Yes,a GA before touchdown(SOP) would have averted disaster here but what if you're low on fuel and your alternate is closing in.SOP is dogmatic.Airmanship is a pilots ability to adapt to the real world.
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Expat vs local argument..any pilot can screw up
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From my viewing of google earth, It appears that the Runway End Safety Area (RESA) at the SW end of rwy 06/24 exceeds the mandatory ICAO requirement of 90 metres from the end of the runway strip. I'm assuming the runway strip end coincides with the end of the concrete turning node which extends past the threshold. Even if the concrete turning node is a declared stopway, and the runway strip extends another 60 metres, then there still appears to be room for the mandatory minimum RESA.
Some one with Annex 14 knowledge and familiar with Bajpe may be able to elaborate.
Some one with Annex 14 knowledge and familiar with Bajpe may be able to elaborate.
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Auto brakes will normally kick in faster than your manual braking, Rana, and the -800 has anti skid and locked wheel protection even if you use manual brakes. Hitting your brakes will not blow the tires unless there is a malfunction of some sort.
Now, if the anti skid is inop, then you have a problem if you are runway limited. Manual brakes in that case will very likely pop a tire or two.
I would never land in i.e. old Hyderabad in the rain with less than auto brake 3 on a heavy -800. Not Bombay RWY 27 either. It's not because I can't brake myself, but because the A/B system works very well. Particularly on a rain soaked, uneven surface.
As for aborting a landing after touch down? This is not a touch and go with "stand them up" and flaps 15 and away you go. It's an emergency procedure if you are in a very, very bad situation with no other options. Only one thing to do, firewall the throttles and hope you make it.
Now, if the anti skid is inop, then you have a problem if you are runway limited. Manual brakes in that case will very likely pop a tire or two.
I would never land in i.e. old Hyderabad in the rain with less than auto brake 3 on a heavy -800. Not Bombay RWY 27 either. It's not because I can't brake myself, but because the A/B system works very well. Particularly on a rain soaked, uneven surface.
As for aborting a landing after touch down? This is not a touch and go with "stand them up" and flaps 15 and away you go. It's an emergency procedure if you are in a very, very bad situation with no other options. Only one thing to do, firewall the throttles and hope you make it.