Air India Express B738 crash
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The Indian DGCA had a policy in place when I was there. It was called Assisted Take-off and landing. This meant that new Capts and those who did not have the clearance had to fly each take-off and landing and had to assume control 1000 ft AGL prior to landing, and could give the F/O the departure after 1,000 ft AGL. If the Capt and the F/O were cleared then the F/O could take-off and land but only under favorable conditions.
Certain special airports were Capt only takeoff/landing under all conditions. Since Mangalore is a special airport, not sure if the F/O would have been allowed to land unless the Capt was a check pilot doing his training. News media has stated that F/O had 66 landings there. That may not be acccurate. Maybe some AIE guys can shed some light.
Certain special airports were Capt only takeoff/landing under all conditions. Since Mangalore is a special airport, not sure if the F/O would have been allowed to land unless the Capt was a check pilot doing his training. News media has stated that F/O had 66 landings there. That may not be acccurate. Maybe some AIE guys can shed some light.
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The image below gives a sense of location of the wreckage (I think on top of the hill are airport installations at end of runway visible). Two questions:
- was it a rejected landing (botched GA attempt), and/or
- what path did the aircraft take (there is an EMAS at runway end)?
- was it a rejected landing (botched GA attempt), and/or
- what path did the aircraft take (there is an EMAS at runway end)?
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isn't it funny, how we can't communicate here on a computer about middle markers, yet expect people of different nations to communicate in the cockpit?
It's often laziness which causes the failure of understanding in r/t communication. Someone hears the term "Middle Marker" and applies it to the painted markings on a runway surface, because it sounds like it might make sense, with the result that some people think he landed in the trees a few miles short of the threshold.
Flying around India, you notice the use of callsigns is optional. Entire conversations with no use of callsign after the initial call, which is sheer laziness. Terminology is applied haphazardly in R/T or not used at all.
Every now and then this laziness and/or confusion of terminology leads to a disaster. (No, not referring to this case)
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AI crash: Focus back on expat pilots - Yahoo! India News
"Expat pilots should be removed because they are not familiar with the diverse topography in India" a retired Indian Airlines pilot, who did not wish to be identified, said.
Diverse topography...
WTF...Does he think expats were flying over the ocean all their life....
"Many a times, foreign pilots are unable to follow the instructions because of the difference in our accent. Also we find it hard to understand what an expat pilot is saying in his hard accent," an ATC source said.
WTF is a hard accent....An accent with a hard on.
"Expat pilots should be removed because they are not familiar with the diverse topography in India" a retired Indian Airlines pilot, who did not wish to be identified, said.
Diverse topography...
WTF...Does he think expats were flying over the ocean all their life...."Many a times, foreign pilots are unable to follow the instructions because of the difference in our accent. Also we find it hard to understand what an expat pilot is saying in his hard accent," an ATC source said.
WTF is a hard accent....An accent with a hard on.
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Gringobr:
Actually, it was a BOAC 911, 1966, a 8 mm film shot by one of the passengers during the flight.
I think the first accident to be filmed was Air NZ which flew into a mountain in Antarctica in 1979.
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AI Pilots making remarks about expat pilots flying there!!!!
It is absolutely disgusting they use this sad tragedy in order to make a point against expat pilots! Out of years of experience flying in and out the smelly continent I can only say that INDIA is dangerous as far aviation is concerned.
Bad infrastructure, low discipline from ATC and local pilots, weather and topography all do their thing. But without expat pilots the situation would be even more catastrophical.
VOCL, VOML etc are ill-designed airports just awaiting for accidents like this to happen. Monsoons are part of the WX profile for 6 months out of 12, yet nobody bothered so far to construct descent runways (grooved, horizontal end long enough) to cope with modern aviation. These airports basically have been constructed by the Brits long time ago and have barely been updated. Most airports have large pending ICAO findings with regards to safety.
Last remarks with regards to language: ICAO considers Indians as native English language speakers so they all get a prof level 6 stamped on their licence. Yet according to their owns statement the accents are soo straong only themselves can understand what is being said most of the time.....
It is absolutely disgusting they use this sad tragedy in order to make a point against expat pilots! Out of years of experience flying in and out the smelly continent I can only say that INDIA is dangerous as far aviation is concerned.
Bad infrastructure, low discipline from ATC and local pilots, weather and topography all do their thing. But without expat pilots the situation would be even more catastrophical.
VOCL, VOML etc are ill-designed airports just awaiting for accidents like this to happen. Monsoons are part of the WX profile for 6 months out of 12, yet nobody bothered so far to construct descent runways (grooved, horizontal end long enough) to cope with modern aviation. These airports basically have been constructed by the Brits long time ago and have barely been updated. Most airports have large pending ICAO findings with regards to safety.
Last remarks with regards to language: ICAO considers Indians as native English language speakers so they all get a prof level 6 stamped on their licence. Yet according to their owns statement the accents are soo straong only themselves can understand what is being said most of the time.....
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I wonder how many more variations on flight parameters will we have before the end of the day?
To clarify.....during this time of the year, a lot of IX flights land very close to MLW - stocked up with fuel and baggage - that's almost 70 tons.
(if you have ever done a Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Muscat or Doha run to India you will know the insane amounts of stuff that pax carry)
For IX, flaps are 40 for VOML, and auto-brakes must be set to max.
A lot of pilots opt to be below GS to touch down as early as possible (high speed, high weight) and even then are taking the full length to stop.
All above aside.....no one knows what happened.
There's a lot of folks out here on this forum who used to work with this crew - both pilots are held in very high regard.
Maybe think about that before jumping to conclusions.
Farrell
To clarify.....during this time of the year, a lot of IX flights land very close to MLW - stocked up with fuel and baggage - that's almost 70 tons.
(if you have ever done a Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Muscat or Doha run to India you will know the insane amounts of stuff that pax carry)
For IX, flaps are 40 for VOML, and auto-brakes must be set to max.
A lot of pilots opt to be below GS to touch down as early as possible (high speed, high weight) and even then are taking the full length to stop.
All above aside.....no one knows what happened.
There's a lot of folks out here on this forum who used to work with this crew - both pilots are held in very high regard.
Maybe think about that before jumping to conclusions.
Farrell
Last edited by Farrell; 22nd May 2010 at 16:13.
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Tanjug are reporting that JAT Airways have confirmed that the Captain was, indeed, one of their pilots.
There are several links online to the story, but none that I can see in English yet.
The long and short of it, is that JAT release their pilots to take up work with various companies whilst the company still continue to pay their pension and benefits. There seems to be an agreement in place between JAT and Air India regarding the pilots, training at Vrsac, and access to US/Canadian routes via Belgrade. Nothing new - and I remember the guys who left to join Ryanair during the UN sanctions in the 90s - but this seems to be a more formal agreement.
There are several links online to the story, but none that I can see in English yet.
The long and short of it, is that JAT release their pilots to take up work with various companies whilst the company still continue to pay their pension and benefits. There seems to be an agreement in place between JAT and Air India regarding the pilots, training at Vrsac, and access to US/Canadian routes via Belgrade. Nothing new - and I remember the guys who left to join Ryanair during the UN sanctions in the 90s - but this seems to be a more formal agreement.
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The sad part of all this is that even before the smoke settled, the blame game has begun. Some people are blaming the airport, some the pilot and a few the pilot's nationality.
And this hurts us even more as we lost 6 of our colleagues in this tragedy. I had the pleasure of flying with the Capt in the past and i can tell you he was a very professional pilot and a through gentleman . I enjoyed my flights with him and learned a lot from him.
The fact is that the plane crashed on landing - but let's not blame a person who cannot defend his actions. He may or may not have taken a decision which led to this crash. But till we know for sure, lets just pray for his soul.
The media here are going mad - blaming everything under the sun. And this debate about the expats being the cause - utter bulls##t. Hopefully they will recover the recorders by tomorrow and the truth will come out. Since ours is a relatively small company, this has hit everyone hard.
@ Farrell
As per our company policy, IXE is a F40 landing airport. At MLW, the F40 Vref is typically 139 KIAS. The leased birds [non-SFP] have a F40 Vref of 141 KIAS at MLW [MLW for all IX acft is 66360 Kg]
And this hurts us even more as we lost 6 of our colleagues in this tragedy. I had the pleasure of flying with the Capt in the past and i can tell you he was a very professional pilot and a through gentleman . I enjoyed my flights with him and learned a lot from him.
The fact is that the plane crashed on landing - but let's not blame a person who cannot defend his actions. He may or may not have taken a decision which led to this crash. But till we know for sure, lets just pray for his soul.
The media here are going mad - blaming everything under the sun. And this debate about the expats being the cause - utter bulls##t. Hopefully they will recover the recorders by tomorrow and the truth will come out. Since ours is a relatively small company, this has hit everyone hard.
@ Farrell
As per our company policy, IXE is a F40 landing airport. At MLW, the F40 Vref is typically 139 KIAS. The leased birds [non-SFP] have a F40 Vref of 141 KIAS at MLW [MLW for all IX acft is 66360 Kg]
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well, expats, what will you now say about smoking holes in India ?
@iflytb20
Brother, thats not the point.
The point is when all the arrogant expats have been crying out loud all the while about impending "smoking holes" in India, because of inexperienced low time spoilt brats, ,,, this unfortunate thing happened at the hands of a very experienced expat !
This seriously demands for a thorough debate on whether we really need so many expats and whether 10,000+ hours really mean safety or just a big fat logbook and a flying time bomb.
Sorry if this sounds harsh and sadistic, but thats the fact.
Brother, thats not the point.
The point is when all the arrogant expats have been crying out loud all the while about impending "smoking holes" in India, because of inexperienced low time spoilt brats, ,,, this unfortunate thing happened at the hands of a very experienced expat !
This seriously demands for a thorough debate on whether we really need so many expats and whether 10,000+ hours really mean safety or just a big fat logbook and a flying time bomb.
Sorry if this sounds harsh and sadistic, but thats the fact.
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this unfortunate thing happened at the hands of a very experienced expat !
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I am a little bit confused. No one of the posters here had been present, but half know already the cause of this sad accident.
Let the investigation team work and get the cause confirmed. This is the moment to make judgement about the airport, crew, ATC or whatever.
Everybody who blames now an individual or organisation without facts is nothing else than an idi....
Let the investigation team work and get the cause confirmed. This is the moment to make judgement about the airport, crew, ATC or whatever.
Everybody who blames now an individual or organisation without facts is nothing else than an idi....
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Having just read the article about a joined drive by indian pilots, ATC and authorities to rid the Indian skies of foreign pilots, due to their "inability" to safely operate in India's "challenging topography", and their "hard accents" challenging ATC, I would like to offer several opinions, having tried real hard to curb my enthusiasm for writing "Indians want foreigners out, reeeaally?", and attempting to keep this civilized and at the level.
A suggestion of "challenging topography" unprofessional at best, and the captain whom the journo has interviewed seems to not have learned much during his career, having uttered such nonsense. I will argue that any proficient pilot, Commander or F/O, is fully capable of reading any and all charts and flying accordingly. Mangalore, just like Innsbruck is an airport which required qualification - again, this is freely available to anyone the company wants qualified for this airport. Suggesting that being born in India somehow grants special powers of topography-conquering is...well, bollocks.
Hard accents? Sure, everybody has his own accent. We laugh at some, we squint and try harder to understand some of the others, but if an ATC controller cannot understand an aircraft, than he has no business manning his station. Do the interested parties in India also propose the rest of the world banning Indian a/c from flying outside of the subcontinent, because their pilots will then presumably also have trouble understanding foreign ATC?
People like this, and statements like this make me sick. I have no doubt that the expat in question, although I do not know him, and now never will, was fully qualified, as was his Indian F/O. They either committed a tragic error, or suffered a catastrophic equimpent failure - either of which they paid for with their lives, and the lives of all souls on board.
The political trolls crawling into the papers can go and crawl back under the rock they crawled out from.
A suggestion of "challenging topography" unprofessional at best, and the captain whom the journo has interviewed seems to not have learned much during his career, having uttered such nonsense. I will argue that any proficient pilot, Commander or F/O, is fully capable of reading any and all charts and flying accordingly. Mangalore, just like Innsbruck is an airport which required qualification - again, this is freely available to anyone the company wants qualified for this airport. Suggesting that being born in India somehow grants special powers of topography-conquering is...well, bollocks.
Hard accents? Sure, everybody has his own accent. We laugh at some, we squint and try harder to understand some of the others, but if an ATC controller cannot understand an aircraft, than he has no business manning his station. Do the interested parties in India also propose the rest of the world banning Indian a/c from flying outside of the subcontinent, because their pilots will then presumably also have trouble understanding foreign ATC?
People like this, and statements like this make me sick. I have no doubt that the expat in question, although I do not know him, and now never will, was fully qualified, as was his Indian F/O. They either committed a tragic error, or suffered a catastrophic equimpent failure - either of which they paid for with their lives, and the lives of all souls on board.
The political trolls crawling into the papers can go and crawl back under the rock they crawled out from.
Last edited by Max Stryker; 22nd May 2010 at 17:24. Reason: Spelling
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AIE/AI Accident waiting to happen
Both AI and AIE have been overdue for such an accident!
Having personally been PREVIOUSLY involved with them and their training for 2 years it had to happen!
This will certainly be PILOT ERROR leading to a non-stabilzed approach/CFIT!
How many times did we see this in the sim or doing line training and Checks? Plenty and really nobody at this company really cared too much!
So we'd failed em, and somebody else would pass them, sign them off they would go!
It was AIE policy to allow Line Captains (zero experience nor certified) to do Line Training for FO's on such sectors to rush them through and save time and money!
The airport is nothing really critical.
The weather was nothing compared to what I have landed in there.
Demonstrated Landing distance was not the issue, and I doubt any mechanical faults contributed either.
Just wait for the CVR and DFDR, it well tell all about this crew!
The crew had at least 18 hrs rest prior.
The crew most likely slept for an hour or more during the crossing each way to DXB, so I see fatigue as not an issue.
This a/c was essentially loaded with all options (excluding HUD).
As a matter of fact, it was a fellow JAT pilot who piloted VT-AXC in Cochin off the runway after touchdown in CAVOK conditions after performing an Auto-land (non-SOP) and causing Millions of $ in damage and nearly destroying the aircraft. It was the Monsoon soaked grass on the south side of RWY 27 that saved the a/c from being torn apart!
He was grounded and then a few months later re-checked and Released.
Who knows how many incidents and accident like this have just been brushed aside which involved BOTH Indian and Foreign Pilots?
While I was there - at least 10 or so.
I have over 50 Voyage /Failed Sim or Line Check Reports from my time there covering many of the below points.
Nepotism, several ignorant and under qualified Managers/Line Trainers/ Instructors, lack of following SOP's, non-existent CRM, seriously faulted Checking and Training practices (which produces exactly this type of an event), have made this 737 Fleet a disaster waiting to happen.
It is the passengers and cabin crew who are the real unlucky ones here having placed their mis-guided trust into such an Operation. These people usually return to India after 1-2 yrs of slave like conditions, bringing with them 30-50 kgs of gifts, housewares and the last paychecks.
I'm sure both Pilots did even know the proper EMERGENCY COMMANDOS, if they even had a chance to use.
While there, we NEVER did Emergency Training and I am confident still has never been done with crews!
What is really sad - the Crews under AI's insurance are NOT insured.
The surviving members of the pax., may be lucky and receive a $30,000 insurance payout many years from now. Always a serious drawback when flying with such 3rd World insured Operations.
So maybe this will finally wake up the DGCA and AI and have them look at this operation, its training and checking!
To Right this Wrong, the Fleet and Airline (AI) would have to be grounded, and painstakingly restructured the proper way!
Having personally been PREVIOUSLY involved with them and their training for 2 years it had to happen!
This will certainly be PILOT ERROR leading to a non-stabilzed approach/CFIT!
How many times did we see this in the sim or doing line training and Checks? Plenty and really nobody at this company really cared too much!
So we'd failed em, and somebody else would pass them, sign them off they would go!
It was AIE policy to allow Line Captains (zero experience nor certified) to do Line Training for FO's on such sectors to rush them through and save time and money!
The airport is nothing really critical.
The weather was nothing compared to what I have landed in there.
Demonstrated Landing distance was not the issue, and I doubt any mechanical faults contributed either.
Just wait for the CVR and DFDR, it well tell all about this crew!
The crew had at least 18 hrs rest prior.
The crew most likely slept for an hour or more during the crossing each way to DXB, so I see fatigue as not an issue.
This a/c was essentially loaded with all options (excluding HUD).
As a matter of fact, it was a fellow JAT pilot who piloted VT-AXC in Cochin off the runway after touchdown in CAVOK conditions after performing an Auto-land (non-SOP) and causing Millions of $ in damage and nearly destroying the aircraft. It was the Monsoon soaked grass on the south side of RWY 27 that saved the a/c from being torn apart!
He was grounded and then a few months later re-checked and Released.
Who knows how many incidents and accident like this have just been brushed aside which involved BOTH Indian and Foreign Pilots?
While I was there - at least 10 or so.
I have over 50 Voyage /Failed Sim or Line Check Reports from my time there covering many of the below points.
Nepotism, several ignorant and under qualified Managers/Line Trainers/ Instructors, lack of following SOP's, non-existent CRM, seriously faulted Checking and Training practices (which produces exactly this type of an event), have made this 737 Fleet a disaster waiting to happen.
It is the passengers and cabin crew who are the real unlucky ones here having placed their mis-guided trust into such an Operation. These people usually return to India after 1-2 yrs of slave like conditions, bringing with them 30-50 kgs of gifts, housewares and the last paychecks.
I'm sure both Pilots did even know the proper EMERGENCY COMMANDOS, if they even had a chance to use.
While there, we NEVER did Emergency Training and I am confident still has never been done with crews!
What is really sad - the Crews under AI's insurance are NOT insured.
The surviving members of the pax., may be lucky and receive a $30,000 insurance payout many years from now. Always a serious drawback when flying with such 3rd World insured Operations.
So maybe this will finally wake up the DGCA and AI and have them look at this operation, its training and checking!
To Right this Wrong, the Fleet and Airline (AI) would have to be grounded, and painstakingly restructured the proper way!
Last edited by Brookfield Abused; 23rd May 2010 at 00:13. Reason: Corrections
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Bit confused
A whole deal of runway information here in the legal cases that this apt has been up against .
Were the petitioners right ??
Mangalore's new runway was legally challenged: Rediff.com India News
Did we have to lose so many lives to find out ?
Were the petitioners right ??
Mangalore's new runway was legally challenged: Rediff.com India News
Did we have to lose so many lives to find out ?
