Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash

[mike-wsm]

Posted for Swiss Cheese:

full size 786x1024

[PJ2]

Swiss Cheese;

Many thanks for this. Here is a graphic of the pedestal as installed. The red rectangle area is the section shown in the photo. The blue section is the lower FMGC panel, the speedbrake handle and the parking brake handle panels behind and to the left of the thrust lever/engine switch panels:



From the photo we see the EIS Switching Panel, the ECAM System Display Control Panel, two thrust levers at the IDLE position, two trim wheels, the fuel control switches without the guards and engine fire lights. Missing are radio panels outboard of the trim wheels, the trim indicators themselves and the aft portion of the pedestal except for one FMGC panel which is resting to the left of the pedestal.

If I may ask, do you have any further photographs of the nearby wreckage? The outboard portions of the quadrant as described, are missing; they would be able to supply a bit more information; hopefully those doing the investigation are already well beyond this kind of information, however.

PJ2

[BOAC]

Swiss - in itself it does not say anything other than the throttle levers were at idle IN THAT PICTURE. Where they were at any other point will come from the fdr.

[Swiss Cheese]

Agreed the throttles are at Idle in the picture

Yes, on a strictly physical evidential basis, you are correct. However, inferentially, you could hypothesise that they were commanded at idle, and the impact forces did not dislodge them from that idle position.

Since there has been deafening silence from the Libyans, this forum is one of the few where informed speculation can be of general assistance.

The new EU regulation on accident investigation that was published in the Official Journal of the EU on November 12th this month, will alter the nature of such investigations to make them more accessible,

Regulation (EU) No 996/2010 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20 October 2010 on the investigation and prevention of accidents and incidents in civil aviation and repealing Directive 94/56/EC (1)

[glad rag]

The above photograph shows an item of equipment that has been damaged it would be quite an assumption to try and say that any of the positions actually relate to anything pre impact due to said damage and witness marks/dirt embedded.

[BOAC]

However, inferentially, you could hypothesise that they were commanded at idle,

- generally an unwise assumption, although of course possible. I understand you practice law? Would you expect a conviction based on that photo?

You need to imagine what convolutions/tumbles/impacts/human actions might have occurred immediately before and after impact.

[CONF iture]

However, inferentially, you could hypothesise that they were commanded at idle, and the impact forces did not dislodge them from that idle position.

You could hypothesize so many things ie how both fuel control switches disappeared.
How long between the crash and that picture ?

[Swiss Cheese]

Hypothesis testing and the law

In the Court of Pprune, if something is more probable than not, or 50.01% for those with a maths preference, then that could be regarded as more than a rumour, and quite possibly a fact.

In Civil Courts, that is the same evidential standard of proof - whether in the UK, US, South Africa or Australia.

Criminal Courts generally require a standard of evidential proof that is beyond reasonable doubt, again well north of 75% for the maths minded.

No one here is asserting any hypothesis for criminal behaviour on behalf of the crew. Most of us know the chilling effect that this would have on air safety. Better a safety culture than a blame culture.

So, a potential partial hypothesis is that the crew commanded idle from the engines......

[BOAC]

So, a potential partial hypothesis is that the crew commanded idle from the engines......

- yes, of course, but extremely 'partial' and with little 'potential', I fear.

[RetiredF4]

Still on the crash site?

CONF iture
You could hypothesize so many things ie how both fuel control switches disappeared.
How long between the crash and that picture ?

If you zoom in on the picture, one could assume it was taken at the crash site. To the upper left there is ground visible. The red colour comes from plastik bags with some part of a flower or a olive-branch in it, like bought in a flower shop. Either those had been dropped as mourning greeetings for the crew or they had been carried on the airplane or in the cockpit.

However i dont think from the complete arrangement that it was taken in the flight safety shop.

The missing engine fire lights........... no idea. Could it be that those are fixed mainly on a frame below the panel and only the covers themselves sheared off?

There might be markings on the throttle quadrant and the linkage which can tell the position of the throttles at first impact, however not visible on the picture.

Thanks for the picture, are there more available?

franzl

[HundredPercentPlease]

The exif data for that photo shows that it was taken 3.5 days after the crash.

[Blocksoff]

Tripoli A-330 Crash

Were are the black boxes?

[aterpster]

Blocksoff:

Were are the black boxes?

I believe it was discussed quite early in this thread that they were sent to France, but that France was bound by a non-disclosure agreement.

[V1... Ooops]

...France was bound by a non-disclosure agreement...

Yeah - the agreement states that France won't disclose anything that might reflect badly on French industry.

[noske]

Since there has been deafening silence from the Libyans,

I would like to point out that at least Afriqiyah are still updating their page on flight 771. The last entry is dated Nov 12, it cites annex 13, lists the participating agencies, and says that a final report "is awaited".

Flight Afriqiyah Airways 771 Johannesburg - Tripoli

[Giolla]

Today, a Dutch daily (Algemeen Dagblad) released a general concern of familymembers of the perished passengers. For a long time no more news, and, above all, not a single item of the personal belongings/luggage have been returned yet according to their claim of today.
A British company has been requested to catalogue the particular unidentified items, sofar nothing has had any positive result.
The concerned party of familymembers meanwhile instituted a foundation to protect their interests to keep the Libyan Airline ahead of the fact that the case is still not closed.

[Brain Potter]

It would be interesting to know if either the aircraft involved in the near-crash as described by arc-en-ciel (page 64) or the actual accident aircraft had the QFE pin-program installed.

Two things lead me to ask the question.

1. The report and graphics that arc-en-ciel has posted refer to QFE.

2. Phil Squares (Page 61) appears to have been privy to the accident DFDR data and indicates that an intended managed approach was changed to selected at a late stage.

The Airbus QFE pin-program sees the MDA (ie "baro minimum") field in the MCDU permanently changed to MDH irrespective of whether QFE or QNH is set. When flying a QNH-based selected NPA the applicable MDA is inserted in this field but is displayed labelled as "MDH". However, when flying a managed/managed NPA the associated MDH must be inserted into this field, irrespective of whether the approach is to be flown on QNH to an MDA or on QFE to an MDH. If this is not done correctly the "triple-click" and mode reversion will occur at the wrong altitude. This set-up makes it quite awkward to change from a managed/managed to a selected approach, without having an incorrect MDH in view, with associated erroneous or missing auto-callouts.

[Mister Geezer]

Lufthansa to carry out an audit of Libyan Airlines and Afriqiyah which, apparently includes screening all flight crew in the sim.

Libyan & Afriqiyah Airways Embark on Flight Safety Assessment

[RoyHudd]

Good news for all concerned. Although LH have had their moments too....

[aguadalte]

Cesco:
Read the article...its all there.