Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
A330first-officer;
My apologies if I upset you with this question, but I ask for your patience and indulgence: You ask in your initial post, "what do you think?" and before responding, even if it may be obvious to some, one must ensure that the information one is commenting upon is current and relevant to this accident.
Some of us do not have access to Airbus Bulletins so when you can, could you post or copy/paste the wording please? Thanks.
Slickster;
Re not being able to stall the aircraft, yes, that's correct and that's precisely the reason that more information is required regarding the statement that Airbus has issued a "stall recovery" bulletin, before taking this line of thought any further. If that is the case, there is much to confirm that is not yet known; if it is not the case and this is an old bulletin as suggested in the post by V1...Ooops below, then the post by A330first-officer claiming that issuance of such bulletin has "...been sent worldwide few hours after the incident" needs to be corrected.
PJ2
Of course it's related to this incident!
Some of us do not have access to Airbus Bulletins so when you can, could you post or copy/paste the wording please? Thanks.
Slickster;
Re not being able to stall the aircraft, yes, that's correct and that's precisely the reason that more information is required regarding the statement that Airbus has issued a "stall recovery" bulletin, before taking this line of thought any further. If that is the case, there is much to confirm that is not yet known; if it is not the case and this is an old bulletin as suggested in the post by V1...Ooops below, then the post by A330first-officer claiming that issuance of such bulletin has "...been sent worldwide few hours after the incident" needs to be corrected.
PJ2
Last edited by PJ2; 13th May 2010 at 15:38. Reason: Response to Slickster re Airbus A330 stall preventions
Originally Posted by A330first-officer
...Airbus sent to all types operators an urgent advisory regarding the STALL RECOVERY PROCEDURE...
One of the recommendations in the NTSB report was that aircraft manufacturers restate procedures for Abnormal Airspeed (Stall) Recovery.
Originally Posted by A330first-officer
...I have a copy of the message and it's been sent worldwide few hours after the incident. Of course it's related to this incident!...
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Stall advisory, linked to this accident?
Hmmmm, not sure. There will be no evidence that this aircraft stalled at this time (it will take some time to download the FDR and analyse the data), and as I have said before, where is the fuselage? A stalled aircraft on approach looks like this Crash B-737-800 Turkish Airlines, Schiphol Amsterdam killing 3 crew, 2 Turkish and 4 American passengers | INTERNATIONAL AVIATION NEWS , big lumps of aircraft remain.
In this case the airframe has been shredded - why?
In this case the airframe has been shredded - why?
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The crew did indicate a problem before landing. If as reported the aircraft 'exploded' in the air, a possibility is a catastrophic engine separation causing explosion.
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Technically no, cannot be stalled in normal law: when speed decreases to Alpha Prot TOGA will be applied (regardless of whether autothrust is engaged) and it becomes increasingly difficult to apply manual nose up pitch. When ALPHA MAX speed is reached it becomes impossible to manually increase pitch beyond the point at which that speed is maintained. If manual input is removed, the aircraft will lower the nose to increase the speed back above ALPHA PROT.
Blocked pitots or similar could lead to an unreliable airspeed situation where the aircraft will react to a perceived overspeed by raising the nose to the point where the stall is approached, normal law will then revert to Alternate law when the discrepancy is picked up, at which point the stall is of course possible.
Blocked pitots or similar could lead to an unreliable airspeed situation where the aircraft will react to a perceived overspeed by raising the nose to the point where the stall is approached, normal law will then revert to Alternate law when the discrepancy is picked up, at which point the stall is of course possible.
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There's a Cathay A-330 Flight Crew Training Manual below - revised up to 2006. Stall Recovery is in there. Do a pdf search on 'stall'. PS. It's 8 Megs.
http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdf...ing_Manual.pdf
http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdf...ing_Manual.pdf
ILS27?
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Boeing guy here, hence speculating a bit :
Could it be a repeat of the CAL A300 crash in Taipei?? Or will the FBW system of the A330 prevent such a thing from happening???
Could it be a repeat of the CAL A300 crash in Taipei?? Or will the FBW system of the A330 prevent such a thing from happening???
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The one thing I don't understand here. Why did they fly the NDB09 instead of the ILS27?
Don't ask, don't get, but then they were locals.......
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Runway sweeping at LGW
BOAC, all I can add to your query is what I know about 8U operations.
They operate the A330 on the TIP/JNB sector and then use the A320 fleet to feed from / to EU airports. Occasionally, the A330 will also fly the TIP/LGW sector, maybe twice per week, as scheduled. I was 'lucky' enough to be aboard ONG on a return flight from TIP to LGW a few weeks ago.
I can only guess, but I suspect what was meant was that the aircraft had left LGW, en-route to TIP, then went to JNB before it's fatal return to TIP.
They operate the A330 on the TIP/JNB sector and then use the A320 fleet to feed from / to EU airports. Occasionally, the A330 will also fly the TIP/LGW sector, maybe twice per week, as scheduled. I was 'lucky' enough to be aboard ONG on a return flight from TIP to LGW a few weeks ago.
I can only guess, but I suspect what was meant was that the aircraft had left LGW, en-route to TIP, then went to JNB before it's fatal return to TIP.
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Can a 330 stall in Normal Law
Theoretically no, but in the same way a vertical stabiliser can be overloaded a FBW airbus in Normal Law can be stalled.
Last edited by Gaston; 13th May 2010 at 16:28. Reason: add title
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by Fcroc
The one thing I don't understand here. Why did they fly the NDB09 instead of the 
ILS27?
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Re. can you stall an Airbus. Well, I just came back from my LPC/OPC which went OK so we had a couple of minutes to play. So, question came, would you like to see the A320 spin? Well, why not. So, on 1 engine at 10000' up pitched the nose, a substantial, but not excessive opposite rudder was fed in, and WHEHEYYY, over it went into a classic and quite violent spin. Standard Recovery made by about 4000'. Hold on,said I, that couldn't happen on 2 engines. Back again we went on both donkeys, Normal Law, again pitch up, adverse yaw and over we go again. Moral from the TRE, don't play with the rudder when airborne!! Flight protection laws are only there in pitch and roll, if you mess with the rudder you ain't going to be safe. Bear in mind this was a Sim, so if the a/c could survive these manouvres is another question.
I have no doubt that this has no bearing on this accident, and I offer my sympathies to the victims and their families.
I have no doubt that this has no bearing on this accident, and I offer my sympathies to the victims and their families.
The Cooler King
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Theoretically no, but in the same way a vertical stabiliser can be overloaded a FBW airbus in Normal Law can be stalled.
The Airbus protection systems are still, in some cases, wildly misunderstood by users and non-users alike.
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Sorry for the confusion earlier re the winglet - 5AONF, as stated correctly, has been flying without the port winglet for some time, not ONG. When I first read these threads yesterday I did not know the reg and just accepted what the earlier comment had stated. With the shift patterns of the Airfield Ops team, over several days each new shift thought it was a new occurrence, hence the frequent runway inspection looking for a bit that was still in TIP. Our schedule is for 5 times weekly visits by the A330, and 2 days for the A320. But this IS subject to change at shortish notice as traffic loads dictate. Normal routing is for LGW-TIP-JNB (Mon/Fri)but yesterday the flight was already planned for A320 due to low load expected outbound. The airline is an IATA member and fully compliant. The aircraft is subject to frequent full CAA/SRG and DfT inspections on arrival at LGW. There have been no reportable items from these parties, only things that could be instantly remedied by the operating crew at the time. The A330 takes no fuel at LGW but round-trips from TIP where it is virtually free. Why have an aircraft with 11 hrs-ish duration for seven hours total flying, plus reserves/div fuel; this still leaves payload to spare as the config is only J30/M200. Oh, and I did supervise the loading when as newly-registered aircraft it was still manual loadsheets, and not on the computer system. And Libya is nowhere near the Mahgreb.
