Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
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I cannot imagine why anyone would book a flight on an airline that was personally inaugurated by the No. 2 madman in the world Muammar al-Gaddafi
(the No. 1 spot is still held by Kim Jong Il)
I have been to Libya, enjoyed outstanding kindness and hospitality on both a business and professional level, and whilst criticism of some aspects of their society and international politics may well be justifiable, this is not the place for it.
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To Gretchenfrage
Young man, be careful of your tongue.
I have known PJ2 professionally for a decade on safety issues. There is nobody in the world more experienced in A330 line operations, in A330 systems and in flight operations quality assurance than he is, although there are likely many as experienced.
Readers of this forum have complained, with justification, about the low quality of discussion. They should be grateful, as I am grateful, that PJ2 has the patience and equanimity to deal with it and still contribute. I don't know how he does it.
PBL
I have known PJ2 professionally for a decade on safety issues. There is nobody in the world more experienced in A330 line operations, in A330 systems and in flight operations quality assurance than he is, although there are likely many as experienced.
Readers of this forum have complained, with justification, about the low quality of discussion. They should be grateful, as I am grateful, that PJ2 has the patience and equanimity to deal with it and still contribute. I don't know how he does it.
PBL
AlwaysOnFire
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I donīt agree on the point that Libya improve year by year, itīs still difficult country to travel to. A group of Swedish overland traveller got stuck this spring in the nomansland between Tunisia and Libya despite having visa.
Anyway, back on topic, wheres the older generation of ATC educated?
USSR?
Anyway, back on topic, wheres the older generation of ATC educated?
USSR?
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I would be interested in knowing from experienced pilots - how difficult is flying a sidestick aircraft under non-optimal conditions including possibly non-powered flight? Do you have positive feel for the beast?
-drl
-drl
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Hi Alex thanks for your reply,
yes ofcourse its a million years away from being up to standard, but I remember a time in libya when one couldn't travel from city to city without papers, and new airbus' or foreigners using tripoli as a hub was unthinkable,
I hope to god, the good that comes out of this, is a serious shock to the system to those who pull the strings, and they can address such issues now rather then the 'tomorrow' approach.
Serious questions need to be asked here.
yes ofcourse its a million years away from being up to standard, but I remember a time in libya when one couldn't travel from city to city without papers, and new airbus' or foreigners using tripoli as a hub was unthinkable,
I hope to god, the good that comes out of this, is a serious shock to the system to those who pull the strings, and they can address such issues now rather then the 'tomorrow' approach.
Serious questions need to be asked here.
The Reverend
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forget, the aleged fuel penalty of 4% comes from BOAC, quoting a post from heli-mate, which I suspect has been mis-understood.
.
The A330 CDL, as quoted by yourself, shows a fuel penalty amongst other operational limitations; of 1.2%
Actually the port winglet has been missing for a few weeks, and whilst the general handling is not affected, the port-side fuel burn has increased by 4%! No, not really, but that is the sort of comment I could expect.
The A330 CDL, as quoted by yourself, shows a fuel penalty amongst other operational limitations; of 1.2%
I donīt agree on the point that Libya improve year by year, itīs still difficult country to travel to. A group of Swedish overland traveller got stuck this spring in the nomansland between Tunisia and Libya despite having visa.
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Been following this thread since it started yesterday. I figure some of the contributors are currently working for Afriqiyah Airlines or within the industry in Tripoli. Would be interesting to hear from them what are the news that are going around about the incident. It was 6am and I am pretty sure many have seen the A/C approaching.
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As the sign on the left says, I am a new guy here, I am not rated on Airbus but I am an accident investigator that has been around a number of sites like this one.
Could we have some of the participants trying to have a look at the event (I leave all the rumblings about Libya, Africa, first, second third words etc. to those not interested in trying to prevent reoccurrence)
Areas for discussion:
Influence of external factors (nav aids, weather) in the decision making process inside the cockpit
Influence of flight factors (crew composition [somebody said 1 Captn + 2 FO: source?], crew rest after previous flight; lenght of flight; fuel usage; fuel uplifted at departure, etc.
Training factors ( when was last time the crew flew NPA for runway 09; are NPA part of simulator
etc. etc. etc.
Could we have some of the participants trying to have a look at the event (I leave all the rumblings about Libya, Africa, first, second third words etc. to those not interested in trying to prevent reoccurrence)
Areas for discussion:
Influence of external factors (nav aids, weather) in the decision making process inside the cockpit
Influence of flight factors (crew composition [somebody said 1 Captn + 2 FO: source?], crew rest after previous flight; lenght of flight; fuel usage; fuel uplifted at departure, etc.
Training factors ( when was last time the crew flew NPA for runway 09; are NPA part of simulator
etc. etc. etc.
Sun worshipper
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PJ2 wrote :
I share the same feeling.
There are a few aspects of that accident that have been missed : some posters have, correctly, pointed at the sunrise-lit mist which would reduce the actual visibility to a much lower value than stated in the METARS... Fine, but there is a lurking potential killer in that statement : until one gets into the mist - i.e at a low height - against the sunrise, the visibility would be, at altitude quite a lot higher than broadcast, tricking the crew either into a visual approach and/or a false sense of safety (We see the runway / the airport from 50 miles...). The sudden transition from unlimited vis to what amounts to a white-out could be astonishingly disturbing (own experience at Dhaka, Bangladesh in the same conditions).
Another aspect of that accident is the number of roads, close to the airport with an easterly direction and which could be mistaken, again in a limited visibility situation with a runway.
My last comment would be about the type of procedure they were following : Someone had posted that the Lybian DGCA hadn't given their authorisation to the "managed NPA". Fair enough. That means that they flew either a "selected" approach or a "normal"/ raw data locator let-down (this time, possibly on manual)...or they were on a visual final (also on manual)...
I don't get the feeling that this outcome had anything to do with the airport, the navaids, ATC or the country the accident occurred in.
There are a few aspects of that accident that have been missed : some posters have, correctly, pointed at the sunrise-lit mist which would reduce the actual visibility to a much lower value than stated in the METARS... Fine, but there is a lurking potential killer in that statement : until one gets into the mist - i.e at a low height - against the sunrise, the visibility would be, at altitude quite a lot higher than broadcast, tricking the crew either into a visual approach and/or a false sense of safety (We see the runway / the airport from 50 miles...). The sudden transition from unlimited vis to what amounts to a white-out could be astonishingly disturbing (own experience at Dhaka, Bangladesh in the same conditions).
Another aspect of that accident is the number of roads, close to the airport with an easterly direction and which could be mistaken, again in a limited visibility situation with a runway.
My last comment would be about the type of procedure they were following : Someone had posted that the Lybian DGCA hadn't given their authorisation to the "managed NPA". Fair enough. That means that they flew either a "selected" approach or a "normal"/ raw data locator let-down (this time, possibly on manual)...or they were on a visual final (also on manual)...
The upside is that Gatwick Airport has done unnecessary runway sweeps looking for a dropped winglet that was not there!
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Well, not really from me, HD, but I think I see what you are saying.
- as if there is not enough muddle on this thread. Where does that leave the rest of the line? If the winglet was not 'missing' before departure, why was LGW sweeping for it? All very confusing.
Anyone clarify?.
Actually the port winglet has been missing for a few weeks, and whilst the general handling is not affected, the port-side fuel burn has increased by 4%! No, not really, but that is the sort of comment I could expect.
Anyone clarify?.
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Center Wing Tank explosion
CWT almost empty, bad insulation of fuel probe wiring. Pitch change at final caused spark just above fuel. Vapour just between upper and lower explosion limits. Production fault.
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My thread in Tech Log was started on 4th May and asked about the performance of an A330 with a winglet missing. I could see it outside my office window at Gatwick.
The thread is here http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/41420...side-only.html.
I said I had seen it arrive with only one winglet and other posters and photos on Airliners.net confirmed it had been missing for a good couple of months, since a taxiing "mishap" at Benghazi.
As far as I am aware it was 5A-ONF with the missing winglet and was 5A-ONG that crashed.
The thread is here http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/41420...side-only.html.
I said I had seen it arrive with only one winglet and other posters and photos on Airliners.net confirmed it had been missing for a good couple of months, since a taxiing "mishap" at Benghazi.
As far as I am aware it was 5A-ONF with the missing winglet and was 5A-ONG that crashed.
Last edited by Three Mile Final; 13th May 2010 at 12:34.
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Wrong Assesmnet
This is for the guy who wrote this:
Experienced crews initially were all hired expats. Libyan pilots did not fly for decades during embargo and most of them did not get tested, got their way paid through their type ratings which they after failing multiple times barely made. Now they think they can fly but see what happens in a little reduced visibility
first i'd like to tell you that the airbus solved such problem by the SOP.
Second point the whole 3 pilots were on board are well qualified and had their A330 CCQ by AIRBUS Industry in TOULOUS/ FRANCE and has been released by AIRBUS TRI/TRE.
third i like to say the following:
all of you supposed to know that 73% of the aircraft accidents were caused by human errors, regardless of the knowledge, the experience, the nationality,......etc
who can guarantee that the cause of the accident was a pilot error?
let's wait for the DFDR analysis then comment.
note:
ATC confirms using the RADAR that the A/C didn't fly below MDA.
Experienced crews initially were all hired expats. Libyan pilots did not fly for decades during embargo and most of them did not get tested, got their way paid through their type ratings which they after failing multiple times barely made. Now they think they can fly but see what happens in a little reduced visibility
first i'd like to tell you that the airbus solved such problem by the SOP.
Second point the whole 3 pilots were on board are well qualified and had their A330 CCQ by AIRBUS Industry in TOULOUS/ FRANCE and has been released by AIRBUS TRI/TRE.
third i like to say the following:
all of you supposed to know that 73% of the aircraft accidents were caused by human errors, regardless of the knowledge, the experience, the nationality,......etc
who can guarantee that the cause of the accident was a pilot error?
let's wait for the DFDR analysis then comment.
note:
ATC confirms using the RADAR that the A/C didn't fly below MDA.
Sun worshipper
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Almalhoufe :
That's a very strange statement,
inaccurate if they approached on 27, then crashed on an overshoot,
wrong if they approached on 09 as they'd have impacted before the runway threshold.
So what can you tell us that you are withholding ?
ATC confirms using the RADAR that the A/C didn't fly below MDA.
inaccurate if they approached on 27, then crashed on an overshoot,
wrong if they approached on 09 as they'd have impacted before the runway threshold.
So what can you tell us that you are withholding ?
