AA crew fed up with JFK ATC - declares emergency.
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When will we learn how this event turns out? Like the flight attendant being dropped off in Miami, it generates a lot of interest and speculation here, and then disappears.
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wasn't there supposed to be a report?
hi boys and girls. has anyone seen a published report on what happened? I mean the official one, not just the news article?
anyone?
oh well...when it happens again...!
anyone?
oh well...when it happens again...!
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RTO - thank you for putting into few words what I was thinking all the time - a man of reason within a bunch of wise cracks. 
I wish I knew how many here have long haul and heavy a/c experience, but by what I read in this place those cannot be more than a handful. Pathetic!
I wish I knew how many here have long haul and heavy a/c experience, but by what I read in this place those cannot be more than a handful. Pathetic!
Guest
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protecthehornet:
There was no incident such as a near miss nor an accident, so the NTSB would not get involved. It will almost certainly be handled internally between the FAA and AAL.
I can't speak for AAL but at my airline the captain was required to file a written report of Use of Emergency Authority on a company form. That went to headquarters and was often the last anyone heard of it; i.e. it's "yesterday's news."
Contrary to what some commentators have said, it is highly unlikely the crew was removed from their in-progress pairing or their subsequent schedule.
hi boys and girls. has anyone seen a published report on what happened? I mean the official one, not just the news article?
anyone?
anyone?
I can't speak for AAL but at my airline the captain was required to file a written report of Use of Emergency Authority on a company form. That went to headquarters and was often the last anyone heard of it; i.e. it's "yesterday's news."
Contrary to what some commentators have said, it is highly unlikely the crew was removed from their in-progress pairing or their subsequent schedule.
Sec. 91.3
Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.
Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
(c) Each pilot in command who deviates from a rule under paragraph (b) of this section shall, upon the request of the Administrator, send a written report of that deviation to the Administrator.
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No Big Deal
The AA crew flying JFK-LAX-JFK is pretty senior, they're extremely familiar with NYC ATC, they knew what they were doing, they know their 767 AFM limitations, and they did what was required. They filed the required report and that was that.
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They said they are going to declare an emergency. This indicates that if ATC does not clear them for 31, the WILL declare an emergency and do what the crew needs to do. All you have to do to declare an emergency is to state "we're declaring an emergency". That's it. I'm sure you armchair, virtual airline wannabes are flipping through the pages of your manuals and handbooks. This was an experienced and capable captain and you are in no position to pass judgement. I personally dislike American Airlines for a number of reasons mainly related to jumpseating, but if this guy was a senior captain there, he knows his stuff. The airline is called the Sky Nazis for a reason. By saying we are going to declare an emergency, the captain was merely telling JFK that he is landing on 31 and if necessary, will declare an emergency if ATC does not comply with his request for 31. He didn't have to be such a ******** about it though. He was right in his decision but I think he could of handled it a little more diplomatically and with greater regard to other traffic. There are 3 major airports within 25 miles of JFK and this is probably the busiest airspace in the world. The captain used his authority and safely landed the plane. Nuff said. This would never happen in Asia or Africa I don't think. Only a western pilot speak up like this. After working overseas for a few years, I have come to the conclusion that many pilots outside of the West will do whatever ATC tells them to, regardless of safety or common sense. A perfect example was last week in Nairobi when an aircraft was held and randomly vectored for 50 minutes because of a VIP(not notamed) departure. The aircraft being held questioned ATC and another aircraft(of Kenyan registry) chimed on the frequency to "do what the controller tells you to do". This is why Africa accounts for 10% of all air traffic but 90% of all air accidents. Good job fellas, you sound like an asshole but you did your job and didn't take any ****. I won't invite you out for a beer but I'll feel safe with you at the controls.
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I assume you're including Qantas and New Zealand in "Western." No Ozzie or Kiwi would ever not speak up, mate.
I'm a New Yorker, but I wear an All Blacks shirt.
I'm a New Yorker, but I wear an All Blacks shirt.
I personally dislike American Airlines for a number of reasons mainly related to jumpseating, but if this guy was a senior captain there, he knows his stuff. The airline is called the Sky Nazis for a reason.
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stepwilk, you know what I meant:-) I was trying to be as politically correct at being politically incorrect as possible mate. Are you OH by chance cause I think we've flown together?
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The problem was jumpseating in Dallas and JFK. In Dallas, gate agent flat refused to list me as there was already "too many jumpseaters" to a place in FL when I don't think there were any. At least not that I saw, i.e. no one in uniform, no purty neat bags, no one grabbing a used USA Today:-), etc. In Kennedy, jumpseaters must check in at ticket counter and once again, "too many jumpseaters". Just put a bad taste in my mouth, nothing against you guys, just being a little crybaby here because your gate agents were uncooperative. I didn't go to our jumpseat coordinator...Once again my friend, nothing against you guys, I'm just bitching because that's what pilots do.
I use the JS to get to/from work and the times I've used AA it was nothing but a positive experience.
People who bitch about the privledge really should remember it's just that. Also ask if it was them who brought on the bad experience.
People who bitch about the privledge really should remember it's just that. Also ask if it was them who brought on the bad experience.
4runner,
Most AA pilots are interested in maintaining jumpseat relations in the industry. You may have been dumped on by a gate agent who was too lazy to do the work. I also know that getting to FL from any other AA station can be a cluster-(shayg?), and from another hub it's even worse. it's that bad for AA pilots themselves 350 out of 360 days a year, and even after 20 years, I'd rank my "pick the JS commuter" skills as 50/50 at best.
Another question I'd ask is if your JS agreement with AA an unlimited one? if not, that would screw your odds most days out of NY or MIA.
Even after almost 20 years of first negotiating for jumpseat privileges, AA pilots still fight a running battle with some management, Flight Attendants and gate agents who despise the privilege (I mean what we paid for). Most are good, but some are a pain. A quick call to APAand I gaurantee you that it will be followed up.
thx
Most AA pilots are interested in maintaining jumpseat relations in the industry. You may have been dumped on by a gate agent who was too lazy to do the work. I also know that getting to FL from any other AA station can be a cluster-(shayg?), and from another hub it's even worse. it's that bad for AA pilots themselves 350 out of 360 days a year, and even after 20 years, I'd rank my "pick the JS commuter" skills as 50/50 at best.
Another question I'd ask is if your JS agreement with AA an unlimited one? if not, that would screw your odds most days out of NY or MIA.
Even after almost 20 years of first negotiating for jumpseat privileges, AA pilots still fight a running battle with some management, Flight Attendants and gate agents who despise the privilege (I mean what we paid for). Most are good, but some are a pain. A quick call to APAand I gaurantee you that it will be followed up.
thx
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Back to school!
FAA AIM
6-3-1. Distress and Urgency Communications
a. A pilot who encounters a distress or urgency condition can obtain assistance simply by contacting the air traffic facility or other agency in whose area of responsibility the aircraft is operating, stating the nature of the difficulty, pilot's intentions and assistance desired. Distress and urgency communications procedures are prescribed by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), however, and have decided advantages over the informal procedure described above. 6-3-1. Distress and Urgency Communications
b. Distress and urgency communications procedures discussed in the following paragraphs relate to the use of air ground voice communications.
c. The initial communication, and if considered necessary, any subsequent transmissions by an aircraft in distress should begin with the signal MAYDAY, preferably repeated three times. The signal PAN-PAN should be used in the same manner for an urgency condition.
d. Distress communications have absolute priority over all other communications, and the word MAYDAY commands radio silence on the frequency in use. Urgency communications have priority over all other communications except distress, and the word PAN-PAN warns other stations not to interfere with urgency transmissions.
CAA CAP 413 Radiotelephony Manual
States of Emergency
1.2.1 The states of emergency are classified as follows:
a)
a)
Distress A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and
of requiring immediate assistance.
b) Urgency A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of
of requiring immediate assistance.
b) Urgency A condition concerning the safety of an aircraft or other vehicle, or of
some person on board or within sight, but does not require immediate assistance.
The pilot should start the emergency call with the appropriate international RTF prefix
as follows:
a)
as follows:
a)
Distress ‘MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY’
b) Urgency ‘PAN PAN, PAN PAN, PAN PAN’
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Terrible airmanship and rt procedures. And this crew with faa licences had no idea how to declare an emergency properly under icao(to which the usa has signed up to) procedures.We are all supposed to be professional and it sounds he declared his emergency for spite.The controllers acted entirely professionally in this situation and i hope the faa flight ops inspectors met this aircraft on arrival at the gate to check the fuel.If the pilot could not land due to cross winds and fuel permitting should have diverted to his alternate considering the runway works would have been published in the notams
Union Goon
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C220cdi
Please take the time to read the thread, you have identified yourself as yet another one who piles on and doesn't know of which you speak.
There is no requirement for an alternate in the USA if the weather is VFR. So there was no alternate for the arrival flight. While internationally it is correct to use mayday and Pan, it is NOT required in the USA, simply declaring an emergency will suffice.
Even with a runway closed, there were 3 seperate pieces of concrete totalling 6 actual runways to choose from at JFK. JFK is NOT a single runway operation even now with 31l/13r closed. The problem here is that JFK aligns its runways for noise, not safety, or even max flow of traffic.
This is an airport where a jet has already run out of fuel and crashed.
Cheers
Wino
Please take the time to read the thread, you have identified yourself as yet another one who piles on and doesn't know of which you speak.
There is no requirement for an alternate in the USA if the weather is VFR. So there was no alternate for the arrival flight. While internationally it is correct to use mayday and Pan, it is NOT required in the USA, simply declaring an emergency will suffice.
Even with a runway closed, there were 3 seperate pieces of concrete totalling 6 actual runways to choose from at JFK. JFK is NOT a single runway operation even now with 31l/13r closed. The problem here is that JFK aligns its runways for noise, not safety, or even max flow of traffic.
This is an airport where a jet has already run out of fuel and crashed.
Cheers
Wino