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Time to end seniority?

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Time to end seniority?

Old 16th Jul 2001, 14:27
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Post Time to end seniority?

Flight International, today's editorial:
(17-23 July 2001)

{selected quotes}


..."Rigid union-backed rules governing seniority are a major disincentive for eperienced pilots to seek alternative flying jobs, because they would have to start all over again at the bottom of the ladder."...

..."...why shouldn't airline pilots be able to take their skills and experience elsewhere in the market place where they can command higher financial rewards, just as professionals in most other industry sectors are able to do without sacrificing seniority?"


Why not indeed? Could a defender of seniority please explain why it is a good practice?
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 14:37
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It's funny, isn't it; the airlines pretend they hate seniority systems, using phrases like "restrictive practice". However, they well know that the system retains many of their senior, most experienced pilots. If it were a totally open system, I suspect many airlines would have to crank their training systems up a notch or two.
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 15:53
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Personally, I agree with the article. Seniority should be based on ability, not time served. The problem is, how best to define ability? If it's left down to, say, the FOD/Chief Pilot/Training Captains then unfortunately - but naturally - personal bias will creep in. And how does one treat someone who is a top rate aviator but is a poor team player/people person ... which would have a potential impact on CRM?

I shall watch this thread with interest!
 
Old 16th Jul 2001, 16:32
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The selection procedure for most western majors is such (talking from a west European perspective, at least) that it is rare to see people coming up whom are not capable of doing the job from the left seat. The training dept. and/or chief pilots should deal with the few who are not up to snuff. Safety would be adversely affected if the guy in the right seat gains by putting down the guy in the left seat. You are both there to make the flight as safe as possible. Changing the seniority system will decreases safety across the board, drive up wages, and is not good for the airline business. It might not be ideal, but it is the best of all scenarios I can think of. I ride the right seat on a 747, am 37 years old and have thirteen years seniority with a major European airline.
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 16:38
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Isn´t ours the only profession that still uses seniority?

Seniority´s great fault is the absolutely necessary premise that all men are equal in ability....But the seniority system must ever persist if only because it is a protection of the weak, who are everywhere in the greatest number. Ernest Gann, Fate is the Hunter

[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Bigmouth ]
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 17:02
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Hang on, though, Otterman - you're assuming that everyone is going to be in the left hand seat! That's not the case at all - there are many people out there who are great pilots but are either incapable or just not interested in being there.

I know that a number of airlines have a "three shots and you're out" upgrade philosophy - but is this really fair? I don't think so!
 
Old 16th Jul 2001, 17:07
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Very true Herod. Seniority, by its very nature, keeps pilots in a company; you leave you loose!

Guvnor:

"the FOD/Chief Pilot/Training Captains then unfortunately - but naturally - personal bias will creep in".

You don't like pilots do you! Are you saying that personal bias only rears its ugly head in the opperational division of the company or companies that you have worked for?

Seniority benefits both pilot and company. The company keeps its experienced people who in turn should be able to pass their knowledge on to the less experienced.

By the time that a pilot makes S/Capt. or S/FO the company must have a very good idea of the indeviduals strengths an weaknesses. Any good company would have sorted the wheat from the chaff by this stage.

Seniority should protect the F/O from direct entry Captains and, depending on ability, give them an idea of time to command.

For Captains it is a right of having done ones time. Why should a senior Captain not have the right for the first bids on fleet transfer, leave and flights?

No system is perfect, but until someone shows me something better I will vote for it.

[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Hogwash ]
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 17:16
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Life isn’t fair, Guvnor. Everyone who has been conscious for more then 6 years knows this. Of course there is a lot of talent being wasted or underused, but if you travel to the second or third world things are put into perspective very quickly. The argument is that the system isn’t perfect or even ideal; it is still the best thing going for the collective pilot group, and the business of aviation.
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 17:17
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Guvnor

"are great pilots but are either incapable"

Could you explain that one please!
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 17:23
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I've said this before when this perennial topic was raised but perhaps it is worth repeating. Seniority is a relic of an era when pilots typically joined an airline and stayed for life. In those circumstances, it worked well. In the deregulated world of today it is a positive disincentive to mobility of labour - it is quite ridiculous for a highly experienced airline pilot to join a major airline at the same level as, say, a newly qualified cadet. Equally, it is wrong to destroy the morale of junior pilots by constantly bringing in others above them. My suggestion is a qualified seniority system whereby new pilots can be inserted at a point commensurate with experience but only up to a point in the list, above which the list is "frozen" so once the ex-cadets et al have crossed the line, they can be assured of normal progression opportunities. It's not perfect but, I believe, better than what we have at the moment.
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 17:33
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You don´t get in the LHS because of seniority!
You don´t get there because "you´ve paid your dues".
Who ever put out this myth that you just have to hold out long enough to get into the LHS??

Seniority let´s you have a try (!!) at the LHS, by being eligible for the training and checks when it´s your turn in line.
If you´re up to it and prove yourself, you´ll be in command, if not, you won´t, even if your seniority number is 1!

The LHS is NEVER guaranteed by seniority or by being up for command training.


What´s the alternative?

An interview with psychos??
An interview with management - hopefully someone who´s not a pilot??
A ranking concerning the fuel ordered/fuel used ratio??
A ranking concerning "punctuality" of dep and arr??
A ranking concerning number of go-arounds flown??
A ranking concerning "flexibility" with roster-changes??
A ranking by the CPs you´ve flown with??

Get a life you worshippers of numbers, operating a plane well and efficiently is a little more complex!
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 17:40
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Pirate

I agree with some of your post but it does not protect the F/O.

Say, for example, Erates Airline is looking at a huge expansion over the next few years. The F/Os are rubbing their hands with glee, they have done their time. Then doom! Cspecific goes t*ts up. Oh-oh, all those highly experienced Cptains are now on the market, all type rated too!

Without a seniority system, and a no direct entry command rule those poor guys will sit on the right for years to come.
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 17:48
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I think it`s still the best system:
-It prevents "brownnosing" your way up.
-You can disagree with your boss or even company and not suffer the career-consequenses.
-Prevents direct entry captains from blocking your way to the LHS.
-It`s transparent and fair to everyone.
 
Old 16th Jul 2001, 18:38
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Wonderbusdriver, don’t overrate the issue. At my airline, and I believe most. The selection criteria during the hiring process are whether you have the basic potential for command on our largest airplane. The failure rate for upgrade to command is less then 2% (this is first time around, I don’t have the numbers for second tries, there are no third kick at the can with my outfit). So at most you would want to turn this safety related system on its head for a few among a thousand. So seniority does directly relate to the LHS, saying otherwise sounds a bit silly.
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 20:16
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Hogwash you say why shouldn't senior Capt's get first bids on Leave etc.

Just because a pilot has been in a company since the bigging of time he doesn't have the right to claim the best of everything. These senior Capt's are paid for there service in good old $$$'s so when it comes to leave, bidding etc there are much fairer ways of working things out. Many company's have rotational seniority's in these areas. It sure helps for a happier workforce instead of just a few happy old men.

Seniority has it's merrits but there is more to it outside the "Square".
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 20:39
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Nighttramp

I agree that it may not be fair. Unless of course you are at the top of the ladder.

I guess the choice is up to the indevidual; when you join you know what the rules are.
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 21:05
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HOGWASH

Too true. Unfortunately gues who made the rules. "In my Day it was like that"
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 21:25
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Otterman:

I agree with your last post 100%, especially regarding it basically being a safety issue.

I´m not trying to overrate this, actually.
Just sick and tired of it being brought up time and again, like someone trying to reinvent the wheel.

Requesting vacation, days-off, trips ONLY by seniority is a load of cr@p, and a completely different subject btw.
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 21:57
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Leave and rostering by seniority is the only fair way, those who have been with an outfit the longest, deserve the first crack at both..command OPPORTUNITIES should be awarded on the basis of seniority, provided all related qualifications are met...the person will then complete satisfactorily the command training, or be relegated to his/her previous position...it protects and rewards folks who have shown a little stick-to-it ivness..and prevents them from being stepped on from "heroes" and hiney-kissers from outside.....the kind of people who don't like seniority as is because it doesn't suit them...

[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: ironbutt57 ]
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 22:40
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My company doesn't hire S/O's or F/O's. They screen, interview, and HIRE Captains. Those new hires must wait for that oportunity however. I think most of you must be assuming that an airline is manned with right seaters that are there only to be rescued that that wise old sage to the left. Simply not so. And to have someone slide in line in front of you in line would have disasterous results on moral. There have been wars over merger integration issues in the past, can you just imagine the results given an ongoing integration. It would also reward those that have made poorer or "less visioned" choices in their employment history.


My two cents

[ 16 July 2001: Message edited by: Brad737 ]
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