Ash clouds threaten air traffic
Join Date: Oct 1998
Location: Kalgoorlie, W.A. , Australia
Age: 86
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Eurocrats?
Thai announced a sensible solution yesterday extra daily flights to Rome & making Madrid a daily service.
However almost at once had to can the idea.
Quote
"Due to uncontrolled situation change at Rome and Madrid airports, the planned TEMPORARY additional flights have been put on hold until further notice."
Who threw a spanner in the works.?
However almost at once had to can the idea.
Quote
"Due to uncontrolled situation change at Rome and Madrid airports, the planned TEMPORARY additional flights have been put on hold until further notice."
Who threw a spanner in the works.?
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: west
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is nothing anyone can do about it until the evidence is in that indicates it's safe to fly.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: VHHH
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another thought for you....
If you intentionally go flying through this ash cloud on a revenue flight and something happens (major or minor) who is to blame for it?
Answer: The Captain.
The Captain at the end of the day takes fully "legal" responsibility for his aircraft and in a court of law he would be fined/imprisonment/loss of job.
We have no legal protection if we knowingly fly through a known ash cloud cloud. It's not the company that would get fined (hmm they would be liable as well - probably).
Food for thought - Is it worth the risk?
If you intentionally go flying through this ash cloud on a revenue flight and something happens (major or minor) who is to blame for it?
Answer: The Captain.
The Captain at the end of the day takes fully "legal" responsibility for his aircraft and in a court of law he would be fined/imprisonment/loss of job.
We have no legal protection if we knowingly fly through a known ash cloud cloud. It's not the company that would get fined (hmm they would be liable as well - probably).
Food for thought - Is it worth the risk?
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
50% ban lifted? (whatever that means....)
Join Date: May 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 62
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What do you want to compare? The colour? Well, yes.
And maybe the size.
And maybe the size.
The colour of the plume gives some clues to this key question but is of itself not very revealing.
Volcanic Ash, What it can do and how to minimize damage
NOAA Economics of Volcanic Ash & Dust Storm Data and Products | Commerce & Transportation | Extreme Events
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: west
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We have no legal protection if we knowingly fly through a known ash cloud cloud
Cam Snapper
Actually, at the beginning it was at high levels, but over the first few days, it settled to below FL 350. It further settled to Earth and showed up as dust over England. So, the problem was at lower levels, climb and initial cruise. Final cruise levels for short haul.
GF
Actually, at the beginning it was at high levels, but over the first few days, it settled to below FL 350. It further settled to Earth and showed up as dust over England. So, the problem was at lower levels, climb and initial cruise. Final cruise levels for short haul.
GF
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: EGCC
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sunfish: my holiday plans are not affected.
However, if the politicians have - as you suggest - scientifically significant data showing the ash concentration at various FLs across Europe, why do we not know about it?
All else is a knee-jerk reaction to a perceived threat. The correct measure is to ascertain whether the perception is backed up by hard facts. That is not being done anywhere in Europe - except through private initiative.
That air space might be initially closed while we are waiting for results from statistically sound sampling is OK. However, I repeat, there is NO sampling going on that we know about.
However, if the politicians have - as you suggest - scientifically significant data showing the ash concentration at various FLs across Europe, why do we not know about it?
All else is a knee-jerk reaction to a perceived threat. The correct measure is to ascertain whether the perception is backed up by hard facts. That is not being done anywhere in Europe - except through private initiative.
That air space might be initially closed while we are waiting for results from statistically sound sampling is OK. However, I repeat, there is NO sampling going on that we know about.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Finland
Posts: 294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Surrey
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The volcano pulsates the ash to different heights. So in answer to your question: no.
Besides, what goes up must come down. Gravity and all that.
Thirdly, planes must keep to a flight path - they don't keep ducking and diving. The ash cloud is irregular.
Besides, what goes up must come down. Gravity and all that.
Thirdly, planes must keep to a flight path - they don't keep ducking and diving. The ash cloud is irregular.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: London, UK
Age: 68
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ratio Changing
Well is seems the the Dollar : Danger ratio is changing.
The airlines seem to be applying pressure in two directions.
Test flights by LH, KLM & BA to show the bureaucrats it's safe.
Presence onboard of BA and KLM chief execs to convince the public it will be safe for them to fly too.
Interesting to see what the US will do when the ash reaches them this evening, will they close down, limit/reroute or just carry on as normal...
The airlines seem to be applying pressure in two directions.
Test flights by LH, KLM & BA to show the bureaucrats it's safe.
Presence onboard of BA and KLM chief execs to convince the public it will be safe for them to fly too.
Interesting to see what the US will do when the ash reaches them this evening, will they close down, limit/reroute or just carry on as normal...
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Turkey
Age: 77
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ash cloud hits Turkey, Istanbul's airports stay open *updates*
tourismandaviation.com
Massive ash clouds from a volcanic eruption in Iceland have reached Turkey, forcing the shutdown of airspace over three provinces in the country's north, the air authority says.
"The volcanic ash clouds have begun affecting the airspace of our country," the Directorate of Civil Aviation Ali Arıduru said in a statement on monday. Airspace at an altitude between 20,000 and 35,000 feet over the Black Sea provinces of Zonguldak, Sinop and Samsun will be closed till noon wenzday, it said.
For the time being the ash will not likely to affect airspace over Istanbul, Turkey's largest city and the hub of its domestic and international air traffic, and it will stay open without restrictions, directorate head Ali Ariduru told Anatolia news agency.
Europe-wide air turmoil caused by the ash cloud has stranded thousands of foreign tourists in Turkey, a major holiday destination for Europeans, and thousands more have been unable to arrive for scheduled vacations.
On the country's Mediterranean coast, hotels offered extended stays for stranded holiday-makers, with hoteliers, tour operators and airlines jointly picking up the tab, Sururi Corabatir, head of the Mediterranean Hoteliers Union, said in remarks published on Saturday.
Hotels in Istanbul struggled to meet the increased demand for rooms, media reports said, adding that unused compounds at the city's main airport were opened to stranded passengers who were given also blankets and food.
Massive ash clouds from a volcanic eruption in Iceland have reached Turkey, forcing the shutdown of airspace over three provinces in the country's north, the air authority says.
"The volcanic ash clouds have begun affecting the airspace of our country," the Directorate of Civil Aviation Ali Arıduru said in a statement on monday. Airspace at an altitude between 20,000 and 35,000 feet over the Black Sea provinces of Zonguldak, Sinop and Samsun will be closed till noon wenzday, it said.
For the time being the ash will not likely to affect airspace over Istanbul, Turkey's largest city and the hub of its domestic and international air traffic, and it will stay open without restrictions, directorate head Ali Ariduru told Anatolia news agency.
Europe-wide air turmoil caused by the ash cloud has stranded thousands of foreign tourists in Turkey, a major holiday destination for Europeans, and thousands more have been unable to arrive for scheduled vacations.
On the country's Mediterranean coast, hotels offered extended stays for stranded holiday-makers, with hoteliers, tour operators and airlines jointly picking up the tab, Sururi Corabatir, head of the Mediterranean Hoteliers Union, said in remarks published on Saturday.
Hotels in Istanbul struggled to meet the increased demand for rooms, media reports said, adding that unused compounds at the city's main airport were opened to stranded passengers who were given also blankets and food.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tees Valley
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thai announced a sensible solution yesterday extra daily flights to Rome & making Madrid a daily service.
However almost at once had to can the idea.
Quote
"Due to uncontrolled situation change at Rome and Madrid airports, the planned TEMPORARY additional flights have been put on hold until further notice."
Who threw a spanner in the works.?
However almost at once had to can the idea.
Quote
"Due to uncontrolled situation change at Rome and Madrid airports, the planned TEMPORARY additional flights have been put on hold until further notice."
Who threw a spanner in the works.?
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Worldwide
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ash forecast change
Do I notice that the forecast for the ash area from a couple of days ago covered a much much larger area of Europe than the actual ash map now issued 1 hour ago.
After airlines are calling for the ban to be lifted, I wonder if the economic implications of closed airspace has 'shrunk' the ash cloud?
Maybe I've over analysed it.
After airlines are calling for the ban to be lifted, I wonder if the economic implications of closed airspace has 'shrunk' the ash cloud?
Maybe I've over analysed it.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,904
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If flights do not resume right now (and yes there will be the inevitible long term damage to some aircraft engines) and this continues for the next month, Western society as we know it and a lot of the third world which depends on it is going down the pan. What's worse? Having a few lost engines or saving the livlihoods of millions. Difficult question as usual, needs someone with more than just an interest in aviation safety to answer.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Close to space
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah. Al Fakhem is right. Once the call to shut all airspace came more should have been done. I would have thought the country's brightest minds would be mobilised. I would expect scientists out with hand vacs colecting settled ash. RAF Tornados up testing the air. I would have expected met balloons going up like a swarm of bees. So far...... A dornier 228 buzzing around and the initiative of a couple of airline bosses.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...or maybe the Knee-jerk reflexes have finally exhausted themselves?
...or maybe enough real data has been collected to give the 'authorities' sufficient confidence to offer risk-based advice rahter than 'CYA and let someone else make the first move' stuff seen so far.
Still don't see much more CONCERTED ACTION to collect more data about the EXTENT and PARTICLE DENSITIES of the ash cloud. This was mentioned several times yesterday. Point to point flights by single aircraft are (usually) more to do with PR than serious scientific data collection. At least UK sems to have had TWO science-based flights - 'Swindon-based' NERC plane (flying from ??) and Cranfield. We should have AT LEAST five aircraft, doing several flights a day EACH on different tracks with different planned ash exposure, if there was any proper programme to collect data about the changing position and height of various components of the ash cloud AND the longer-term effect on turbines.
...or maybe enough real data has been collected to give the 'authorities' sufficient confidence to offer risk-based advice rahter than 'CYA and let someone else make the first move' stuff seen so far.
Still don't see much more CONCERTED ACTION to collect more data about the EXTENT and PARTICLE DENSITIES of the ash cloud. This was mentioned several times yesterday. Point to point flights by single aircraft are (usually) more to do with PR than serious scientific data collection. At least UK sems to have had TWO science-based flights - 'Swindon-based' NERC plane (flying from ??) and Cranfield. We should have AT LEAST five aircraft, doing several flights a day EACH on different tracks with different planned ash exposure, if there was any proper programme to collect data about the changing position and height of various components of the ash cloud AND the longer-term effect on turbines.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: South Australia
Age: 74
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No, its' actually not only at high altitude. In some places it is low down in others high up. For instance over Switzerland the cloud reached down to less than 10,000ft. And one of the problems is to nail down at what altitudes it actually.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Norway FIR opens, but W part may close this afternoon
Breaking news from CAA Norway @ 0900 LT: Norwegian airpspace is now open, except the north-easternmost part, including three local and one regional airport. Svalbard (Bodø OFIR) is also open. Forecasts indicate that the Norwegian part of the North Sea may close @1200Z, and the rest of southern Norway may close tonight.
Sunfish: my holiday plans are not affected.
However, if the politicians have - as you suggest - scientifically significant data showing the ash concentration at various FLs across Europe, why do we not know about it?
All else is a knee-jerk reaction to a perceived threat. The correct measure is to ascertain whether the perception is backed up by hard facts. That is not being done anywhere in Europe - except through private initiative.
However, if the politicians have - as you suggest - scientifically significant data showing the ash concentration at various FLs across Europe, why do we not know about it?
All else is a knee-jerk reaction to a perceived threat. The correct measure is to ascertain whether the perception is backed up by hard facts. That is not being done anywhere in Europe - except through private initiative.
Your only interest in 'scientific data' would seem to be to justify your own opinion that is perfectly fine to fly. This is a not an issue for science, its an business-engineering decision (and certainly not pilots).
Sunfish has give a very solid and precise explanation of why flying in the plume is bad for the engines and bad for the airlines economics, yet you and a lot of other posters simply don't want to listen to such inconvenient facts.
His thought processes obviously mirror what will be happening within airlines - how can they continue to fly and make a profit if engines have a life span as little as 100hours? Well they will have to charge nn times as much as previously to cover the overhaul and inspection costs on a vastly reduced schedule. This might doom the airlines in question with months if it wrecks the fleet.