Ash clouds threaten air traffic
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Apologies is this has been asked before but with 20 pages of posts I can't see it.
If the ash is around 18,000' (as reported on Breakfast TV) why not let aircraft operate at say 5000' until clear? Is it a case of not being sure of the level or operational issues or £?
If the ash is around 18,000' (as reported on Breakfast TV) why not let aircraft operate at say 5000' until clear? Is it a case of not being sure of the level or operational issues or £?
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Didn't a plane go up yesterday for sample testing? Anyone heard any results from it?...
As has been said, why can't pilots depart VFR to 5,000ft until clear then open up a IFR plan?
As has been said, why can't pilots depart VFR to 5,000ft until clear then open up a IFR plan?
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Lots of varied opinions on here none from me though cos i am not i a position to know. I fancy shuttting down is the right decision because the French have done it as well, they always like to be different when they can get away with it.
Our roof skylight is covered with a film of orange dust this morning it wasn't there yesterday and it hasn't rained so maybe it is from Iceland!!
Our roof skylight is covered with a film of orange dust this morning it wasn't there yesterday and it hasn't rained so maybe it is from Iceland!!
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Most if not all airlines do not permit VFR flight. Terrain, economic and many other issues.
Also jet engines operating at that level burn huge amounts of fuel.
Plus I guess they are worried about descending ash which is why VFR (flying club) traffic is now affected.
Also jet engines operating at that level burn huge amounts of fuel.
Plus I guess they are worried about descending ash which is why VFR (flying club) traffic is now affected.
I know re-posting this is pointless
Obviously if you are going to be the 100th person posting the same comment "I think this is an over reaction", you arn't actually going to read anything but the last post on the thread...
barbiesboyfriend:
I think this is all a bit overdone.
We know that the ash that BA009 encountered was too much.
Is that all we know?
How much, for example, is of no significance? (in ppm)
How much is the level over, say, London today? in ppm or some other unit.
I'm sorry to have to tell you that it is not overdone.
First stage turbine blades in jet engines are operating in a gas stream well above their melting point.
They are cooled by an internal flow of cooling air that exhausts through hundreds of very tiny holes, providing what is called "film cooling".
Volcanic ash in the cooling air melts and clogs these holes. The result is blades overheating and failing. Failure = no thrust.
As far as I know, the only data on "How much" ash will cause this condition is supplied by Two or Three accidental flights through ash.
I don't believe anyone wants to risk aircraft or passengers in test flights to prove some theory about acceptable levels of airborne ash, or others about ash concentrations or flow patterns. As far as we currently know, the acceptable level is zero ash.
The blades look something like this, and they are very, very expensive.
I think this is all a bit overdone.
We know that the ash that BA009 encountered was too much.
Is that all we know?
How much, for example, is of no significance? (in ppm)
How much is the level over, say, London today? in ppm or some other unit.
First stage turbine blades in jet engines are operating in a gas stream well above their melting point.
They are cooled by an internal flow of cooling air that exhausts through hundreds of very tiny holes, providing what is called "film cooling".
Volcanic ash in the cooling air melts and clogs these holes. The result is blades overheating and failing. Failure = no thrust.
As far as I know, the only data on "How much" ash will cause this condition is supplied by Two or Three accidental flights through ash.
I don't believe anyone wants to risk aircraft or passengers in test flights to prove some theory about acceptable levels of airborne ash, or others about ash concentrations or flow patterns. As far as we currently know, the acceptable level is zero ash.
The blades look something like this, and they are very, very expensive.
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John47 At first sight it looks like today, Fri 16, there is no air traffic in Eire, UK, Scandinavia, Finland, Latvia Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Germany, Benelux, Holland, France, Spain and Portugal.
Clearly all these countries have overreacted and lack the judgement of most posters here.
Clearly all these countries have overreacted and lack the judgement of most posters here.
I'm not a specialist too. However I know there are many active volcanos on our planet, but I haven't heard any recently about airspase closures apart from narrow no-fly zones where you can obviously see the dust visually.
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@ Binks,
Thanks, didn't know they were not alowed to fly VFR (Im a chopper jock).
If they were though, I'm sure the extra fuel burn would be alot less impacting finacially than having them on the floor all together. Don't know just a thought....
Thanks, didn't know they were not alowed to fly VFR (Im a chopper jock).
If they were though, I'm sure the extra fuel burn would be alot less impacting finacially than having them on the floor all together. Don't know just a thought....
Notivce the ash maps say no significant ash risk above FL 350 - so are NATS allowing overflights above that level and, if not, why not? Ok I suppose emergency descent is a possibility?
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Finnish Air Force did "sample gathering flights" with a BAE Hawk on request by traffic safety bureau. Pilot didn't need to eject but evidently findings were worrying enough that the authorities chose to close entire aerospace soon after. Earlier the day some Air Force Hornets had accumulated dust in engine intakes. Volcanic ash was also found on Vinka L-70 basic trainers (piston powered). If the ash can be found on a basic trainer, I can imagine any GA flying at lower levels is in risk.
Ref. Article in finnish (google translate isn't entirely incorrect):
Ilmavoimien koneet hakivat nytteit - HS.fi - Kotimaa
Ref. Article in finnish (google translate isn't entirely incorrect):
Ilmavoimien koneet hakivat nytteit - HS.fi - Kotimaa
If you look at the latest predictions from the met office http://metoffice.com/aviation/vaac/d...1271398735.png
You can see that the cloud is starting to move up it's own backside. This will continue until we start getting some SW airflow which, if you look at this chart. Mean sea level pressure, wind speed at 850 hPa and geopotential 500 hPa, temperature at 850 hPa
is unlikely to occur until next weekend.
We have the real possibility of a massive cloud of ash sitting right over the UK and extending well beyond 10 west.
You can see that the cloud is starting to move up it's own backside. This will continue until we start getting some SW airflow which, if you look at this chart. Mean sea level pressure, wind speed at 850 hPa and geopotential 500 hPa, temperature at 850 hPa
is unlikely to occur until next weekend.
We have the real possibility of a massive cloud of ash sitting right over the UK and extending well beyond 10 west.
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Skeptics, consult post no. 308 by Lobo Tx
Lobo is a geologist. He explains how different volcanos make different particle contributions to various flight levels. So dodging Mt. St. Helens back in the l980s is far far different from ingesting abrasion downstream from Iceland.
Can't argue with a volcano. As it seems possible air travel may have to downsize, suggest, LoboTX, that you book your family holiday this summer to the UK via Cunard......
Meanwhile, those addicted to flying might enjoy visiting a local gliding club (consult British Gliding Association website); happy to get you airborne via winch launch, no flameouts guaranteed.
I still recall with pleasure sharing the airways with the jet traffic over Aboyne at 20,000' - in a glider. And enjoying a cross country flight in the UK of more than 500k. You really don't need any engine at all, chaps.
Now if we could only figure out a way to cut the noise and pollution from road traffic as well......
Can't argue with a volcano. As it seems possible air travel may have to downsize, suggest, LoboTX, that you book your family holiday this summer to the UK via Cunard......
Meanwhile, those addicted to flying might enjoy visiting a local gliding club (consult British Gliding Association website); happy to get you airborne via winch launch, no flameouts guaranteed.
I still recall with pleasure sharing the airways with the jet traffic over Aboyne at 20,000' - in a glider. And enjoying a cross country flight in the UK of more than 500k. You really don't need any engine at all, chaps.
Now if we could only figure out a way to cut the noise and pollution from road traffic as well......
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Remember that even if the ash concentration is not high enough to cause an engine to stop running, it can still cause significant damage. And what good is it to have planes flying now and after 10 or 20 hours flight time in the "thin ash" you find out that your engines are ruined. How long would fleets have to be grounded if suddenly all engines have to be replaced?
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I don't suppose NATS or other ATC organisations are banning the flights lightly. After all, if the aircraft don't fly throught their airspace, they don't get paid either.
The decision not to fly has been made internationally and for the right reasons. Can you imagine the furore if an airliner flew in these conditions and came down over London, Amsterdam or Frankfurt? It is inconvenient for all- crews and passengers alike, but unfortunately, so be it.
I am happier being down here wishing I was up there rather than being up there wishing I was down here!
The real trial for all the airlines will be next week when it starts to get back to normal- not only are crews in the wrong place, but my company have crews stuck downroute on what is now their days off- they will need extra unscheduled leave to compensate and this will impact on ALL the crews, so I suspect much disruption for the next week or so. And THAT assumes we will get back into the air in the next day or so!
The decision not to fly has been made internationally and for the right reasons. Can you imagine the furore if an airliner flew in these conditions and came down over London, Amsterdam or Frankfurt? It is inconvenient for all- crews and passengers alike, but unfortunately, so be it.
I am happier being down here wishing I was up there rather than being up there wishing I was down here!
The real trial for all the airlines will be next week when it starts to get back to normal- not only are crews in the wrong place, but my company have crews stuck downroute on what is now their days off- they will need extra unscheduled leave to compensate and this will impact on ALL the crews, so I suspect much disruption for the next week or so. And THAT assumes we will get back into the air in the next day or so!
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Irish Aviation Authority is to lift all airspace restrictions at 10am
Irish Aviation Authority is to lift all airspace restrictions at 10am. Up to airlines what operations will resume.
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I flew back and forth from the US to Asia for several years, like many other pilots. Warnings (sigmets) for volcanic ash were and still are commonplace in Alaska and the Kamchatka peninsula in Russia's far east. The US nor the Russians closed their respective airspace. You re-route and carry more fuel.
Of course flying through volcanic ash is not wise, but to do the "blanket approach" and shut down airports and airspace that is not infected by the ash, is incredible.
This is going to set the airline recovery back another century. Get ready for thousands more qualified and current pilots to join the ranks of the unemployed if airlines are unable to cope with this economic setback.
Of course flying through volcanic ash is not wise, but to do the "blanket approach" and shut down airports and airspace that is not infected by the ash, is incredible.
This is going to set the airline recovery back another century. Get ready for thousands more qualified and current pilots to join the ranks of the unemployed if airlines are unable to cope with this economic setback.
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Looking at the maps linked on post 380 you can see that anything from the Irish Sea westwards across Ireland doesn't seem to be in the "Ash" zone so hence the Irish authority's decision.
Although it won't help many yet at least it's good news for some!
Although it won't help many yet at least it's good news for some!