Indonesia Crash

[vapilot2004]

Judging by the photos, lucky on two counts here: lack of serious injuries, save one, and no fire.

[ZEEBEE]

And don't you think it's quite sad (and disturbing) to have clients doing the safety auditing instead of the aviation authorities?

That's pretty much SOP these days HKA

Here in Oz, all of the major mining companies as well as others perform their own Audits on operators, be they local or overseas.

The minimum standards by the Aviation Authorities seem not to be adequate to stave off the litigation these guys face if their staff have been found to be assigned to a "questionable" operator.

The term questionable of course, only becomes obvious AFTER the accident.

[Saint Jack]

HKAforever: Don't worry, I fully understand your sentiments. Yes, there are some very good, conscientious pilots in Indonesia and I'm lucky to consider some of them among my friends. But I'm sure you'll agree that almost to a man they're often badly let down by their employers.

There was a time - not so long ago - that you rarely saw an Indonesian pilot working outside of Indonesia. Now that is not the case and many of them are seeking greener - and safer - pastures.

I think we need to separate scheduled airlines, by far the worst offenders - and other non-scheduled carriers. It is the latter catagory I had in mind with my earlier post.

Yes, it's very sad that clients are effectively doing the job of the DGAC. I've also seen the DGAC audit a non-scheduled carrier and it was a real eye-opener, done almost entirely from the QCM office and in a remarkably short space of time.

[HKAforever]

@Zeebee
True, but that dosen't change the fact that you should not have to rely on company auditing to improve an airline safety. What about the individual passengers who don't have the benefit and largese of a company to back them up and are stuck flying with the questionable scheduled airlines? Basic safety standards always have to come from the government regulatory authority, whatever that may be. And as this crash shows on top of the many other crashes in that country last year, Indonesian civil aviation standards still have a long way to go. This is sad since I do agree with Saint Jack, there are many good Indo pilots, but they are indeed let down by their employers and the system as a whole. Without changes from the entire civil aviation system as a whole, Indo pilots will continue to suffer.

[ZEEBEE]

HKAForever

I do agree with you, however the point I was trying to make was that external audits don't necessarily imply that there is a problem.

In the case of Indonesia, it's a bit different as the large mix of airlines and the tight competitive climate is a precarious place unless safety cultures are heavily embedded.

Then to add to the problems by having a steep CRM gradient in most of the aircraft (either real or perceived) and you have a serious risk level, particularly when faced with the terrain and climate that is Indonesia most of the time.

[GBV]

"only one" Indonesia airline (Garuda) is permitted to fly to EU countries.

Some have reached an international standard and are permitted to fly into the EU although I understand only one does at present.

Garuda , Mandala, Premiair and Airfast are the ones allowed to fly into the EU.

The majority of these operators have one thing in common - they have on-going contracts with major oil, gas and mining companies. It is these clients who are driving up the aviation standards, not the DGAC, and it is done by rigourous external audits and comprehensive contract requirements.

I have seen some of those external audits and they are not rigourous at all...just another way to make money...maybe the only reason why we don't see many non-scheduled operators crashing is simply because they don't fly as many hours as a scheduled Indonesian operator.

[PK-KAR]

2 instructors in front... and this happened... Ego-war in front? Get-there-itis?
Possible MDA bust and/or unstable approach.
Or someone forgot to do a "spoilers" call...

Geez... when will my fellow countrymen learn that ego & flying = disaster?

These audits and contract requirements are not 'impossible standards', they are achievable but require a 'top-down' approach and commitment from the individual company - the rewards are substantial.

One enjoyed an incident free year last year, and continues to work hard to get another year of it... and its yields are up as a result...
Another continue to work on further improving safety, and is enjoying bloody high yields thanks to pax from the oil and gas industry (and continue to pass their better than the DGCA audits).

BUT, both, are now being targetted by the regulators and competitors for possible paperwork violations... It seems that many people in the industry, just don't believe in safety and are out to punish those who enjoy the benefits of achieving good safety standards! Yes, safety is improving, but it has resulted in some here to put on their worst behaviour!

You said it yourself, "only one" Indonesia airline (Garuda) is permitted to fly to EU countries.

4 actually... (as GBV mentioned) they had to apply for the exemption, and recommended by the DGCA... Guess what, one of the two companies mentioned above have given up applying for the exemption because "it's not worth it" due to the recommendation "requirement" imposed by the DGCA.

have seen some of those external audits and they are not rigourous at all...just another way to make money...maybe the only reason why we don't see many non-scheduled operators crashing is simply because they don't fly as many hours as a scheduled Indonesian operator.

Well, some are strict as hell, some are just there for "slap another audit on the resume". Some airlines think that the strict ones can be bought, and those who tried, got a nasty bite... and ended up claiming to be the victim of a global conspiracy to take over the Indonesian airlines, and accuse those who passed the audits on merits to be 'siding with the enemy'.

May the good guys reap the benefits! For the idiots, may you reap what cr4p you sow!

This accident comes as no surprise in terms of the carrier and timing. Some have fallen back into complacency. Wake up! Safety is no autopilot!

But then, when I get a rant from someone at one of the manufacturers saying his visit to one airline's maintenance shop saw a ridiculous comment by one of the maintenance managers, who upon hearing one of the aircraft in the shop can't start its engines, he said (seriously), "have you tried jigging the choke setting?" Both me and my friend wonder, when will the bosses learn, that safety is part of your product, and not some expense/cost to minimize (and that hiring idiots doesn't save you money!)

[Saint Jack]

PK-KAR: Excellent post, sums up Indonesian aviation regulatory oversight nicely. To substantiate my point that the DGAC is well behind the safety curve, consider this: I know of a very well regarded and professionally run charter operator that applied to be upgraded from Catagory II to Catagory I. They should have passed with flying colours except that the DGAC paper-work (essentially a questionaire) had many questions that were applicable to multi-engine aircraft operations and this particular operator only flies single-engine machines. As a result, the operator could never have achieved a pass grade and is now condemned to be a 'Cat II company' when by all standards it should be Cat I. What to do..........

[PK-KAR]

it was a double captain flight (lack of crew)!

Affirm on that. had the source correcting the info...
We're all spectators since none of us were there

Interesting shots.

[Doors to Automatic]

Interesting throttle position - although the Flaps do appear to be set correctly. Spoiler appears to be stowed although that may have been done after the crash.

[vapilot2004]

Now here's a picture you don't see everyday. (thankfully)

[Oakape]

The spoiler lever appears to be in the 'armed' position, just out of the down detent.

The thrust lever positions could indicate something was amiss, although the movement of the #1 thrust lever fully forward could have happened at any time.

I do find it interesting though that both reverse thrust levers are stowed, although it is possible that they could have been stowed after the aircraft stopped & before #1 thrust lever was moved full forward.

[GBV]

After seeing those pictures and also one showing some marks at the runway end, i start thinking that they tried to take-off again...

[framer]

I doubt he's a nosy tourist or an accident investigator. If he was, he probably wouldn't have blood on his shirt and be so disheveled. Maybe a pilot from the airfield who witnessed the crash and rushed to help? Or a dead-heading pilot, or the actual F/O. Either way he looked like he was about to tell the cameraman how it is .

[Arthur Boy]

He has 4 bars........are we sure he is not the operating skipper??

[Sqwak7700]

I count three bars. If the rumors that there were two skippers flying are right, then he must have been either deadheading or maybe as someone earlier pointed out, someone who saw the plane crash and rushed to help.

[subsonicsubic]

I see two Western pilots. Looks like Captain and 1st Officer.

I doubt these guys were flying but may have been involved in the rescue errorts by the look of things.

[Smellyapple]

just a nosey Caravan pilot

[patrickal]

Given the last post showing the fact that this is now a tourist attraction, I doubt that the position of any of the cockpit controls will be of any use to the investigation. Earlier posts spoke of the positoin of both the spoiler and TR handles, but how do you know the controls have not been touched, given all of the access everyone has had to the aircraft?

[WSSS]

The captain is a local with more than 11,000 hours and has been named in this news article.

Plane Seriously Damaged After Accident: Merpati - The Jakarta Globe

I don't think Merpati currently has any expat pilots, well not at the moment, anyway.

Originally Posted by Smellyapple

just a nosey Caravan pilot

Oh I see, well if you're there on a tourist visa, then you're a nosy tourist, matey.