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Polish Government Tu154M crash

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Polish Government Tu154M crash

Old 22nd Apr 2010, 21:07
  #881 (permalink)  
 
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TU204 didn't turn over, that was lucky. Though they left behind them a whole path of trees fallen and cut. And didn't blow up, no fire. And din't fall into small pieces, like TU154M here, but as they say eh? collapsed along the sewing lines? where they forged it together, the metal, when making it. Into big pieces cracked, along the production "lines".

Now the TU154M (the forum disputes) must have landed on roof, which is bad, because floors are strengthened, for the case of "landing on the belly", and roofs aren't, these TU-s are not supposed to fly upside down, they are not avia show destroyers.
TU154 can make a "barrel" in the air, turn over and fly further on, but this was just done once, by a naughty graduate, his name is famous, as his study in the piloting academy ended for him on that trick, no qualification, 5 years of study lost.
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Old 22nd Apr 2010, 21:24
  #882 (permalink)  
 
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As for lighting in the Northern, nobody in the forum knows was it on or off during Kachinsky plane arrival.
This knows the Polish side, and MAK now, because whatever it was - the crew was briefed on that by the Russian aerodrome, before taking off from Warsaw. It is part of the procedure - they say - briefing the travelling side will there be lights on or off in the day time. As they briefed them about the weather - must be have briefed them about the lights by the runway expecting them.

Smolensk explained the system at Northern aerodrome is
day time - no lights
day time fog and other visibility problems - yes lights on
night time - lights on.

At that, they switch them on differently, and may be carry back and forward some, the difference is between "day time fog" mode and "night time".

At "day time fog" - the ones in front of the runway - are positioned like open gates, and are turned towards the aircraft approaching. They are like? positioned as open gates, at an angle, widening outside. To meet the plane, and light - towards the plane.

At night time the ones in front of the runway - are turned and positioned differently - no "gates" are formed, and no light turned towards the aircraft, but all are pointed at the runway, inside.

Along the runway they have something permanent, digged in forever, and what it is in immediate approach to the runway - these are various funny buckets perched on on some beton poles, chunks, digged into the ground.

As I understood they are also in different colour, green ones are solid, and the yellow ones the forum suspected like, look like improvised very much.

Anyway - whatever it was - colours at military aerodrome and the position - pointed inside or pointed outside or not switched on at all - Warsaw must have been briefed about, before the take off. It's part of the briefing procedure when such, basically, charter flights, one off, are organised.
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Old 22nd Apr 2010, 21:34
  #883 (permalink)  
 
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The main news of today is that there isn't news, what was promised to be told today in Poland was not told. Recording content not published.
There was a press-conference in Poland but they managed to speak for a long time and say nothing.

Smolensk forum now lays hopes only on tape records leak into internet.
It's Russia, after all; someone should have mercy on ordinary locals of both countries lost in theories (one wilder than another) and in ideas and put the contents out.
MAK has the tapes but won't publish the content of talks in a foreign aircraft - unless Poland gives agreement.
MAK though can publish talks of own aerodrome with the aircraft, our ground, our control tower, in our jurisdiction - to make public or not.
But may be they were asked by Poland to hold on a bit.

The crew was identified last and is only today will be flown to Warsaw from Moscow.
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Old 22nd Apr 2010, 22:09
  #884 (permalink)  
 
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That the outer NDB is about 6 km from the runway threshold instead of 4 is irrelevant. I doubt such a so-called "standard" would exist in any regulation worldwide. As PJ2 explained, an approach has to be prepared using a specific chart on which all the necessary information is printed.

A possible QFE / QNH confusion appears remote since the crew was certainly "current" on the russian altimetry procedures and had a recent experience. It seems an erroneous reference pressure (QFE most probably) like an error on the next to last digit would be more consistent with the position of the first tree hit (assuming that a correct vertical speed was used).

Obviously, such an error could have multiple sources. One of them could be bad radio transmissions. By the way, ATC reported the crew had problems understanding numbers. Whilst the captain was said to be a fluent russian speaker we don't know who was tasked with radio transmissions.

Just a theory...

DJ
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Old 22nd Apr 2010, 22:09
  #885 (permalink)  
 
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"We have reason to believe that the implementation of the third proposal of the Polish side to the Russian legal aid - to pass the record of the preliminary analysis of flight recorders, is likely to be implemented in next two weeks' - said Seremet "Until we receive the rest of the evidence that Polish side acquired from the Russian's, Polish prosecutors can not make a decision on disclosure of their contents" - general attorney added
General Attorney Andrew Seremet

google translation from polish that I've tried to fix. Still may be bad

That mean's maybe 4 weeks after crash . Why ?
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Old 22nd Apr 2010, 22:28
  #886 (permalink)  
 
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Hi,

That mean 4 weeks , after crash . Why ?
That's very short . 4 weeks .... do you not stay waiting for the release of the ones of the Beirut crash ?

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...ar-beirut.html
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Old 22nd Apr 2010, 22:32
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2) This photo of the port engine (?)


???-??????? Picasa - ?????? ?????? - ?????????????...

has no indication of blade fracture or centrifugal slinging of debris - is there any chance this engine was under power at the time of the crash?
It appears the blades are largely intact despite the crushing of the housing and the mud seems to have been deposited onto a stationary rotor.
It's a stator, not a fan disc - D-30 is a two-shaft low-bypass turbofan engine, referred to as a "bypass turbojet"; see photo: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...w_D-30_III.jpg

Regards,
Mike
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Old 22nd Apr 2010, 22:47
  #888 (permalink)  
 
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Hi jcjeant
just briefly looked at that thread
and you are right ,comparing to that , 4 weeks is short
but the question is , why ?
why not kill all the rumours and conspiracy theories and give information to the people?
why all that we are getting is more like missinformation ?
is there something to hide ?
in both cases
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Old 22nd Apr 2010, 23:06
  #889 (permalink)  
 
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Hi,

When politics and money and other vested interests meet it's always somethings to hide or coverup.
It's why it will be better to have another system of investigations than the existing one.
Why not for the investigations a international independent panel of experts and for the legal side a court of justice completely independent like the International court of justice of Den Hague ?
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Old 22nd Apr 2010, 23:18
  #890 (permalink)  
 
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You are absolutely right about independent investigation.
But we all know that it will never come true
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Old 22nd Apr 2010, 23:42
  #891 (permalink)  
 
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There can be many reasons for delay.
The crew not even buried yet - one.
Polish Presidential elections - two. Where the party of late President is about to put forward from them Kachinsky's own twin brother.
Waiting for the interest to die out, public attention re-switching onto something new - and then release the materials - three.
Hard to say.
But surely absence of even minimum data only feeds rumours and at present helps to build up tensions.
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Old 22nd Apr 2010, 23:45
  #892 (permalink)  
 
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Victory day as well. That Poland comes to celebrate with us in 3 weeks' time.
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Old 22nd Apr 2010, 23:45
  #893 (permalink)  
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PJ2, for dual NDB approaches in Russia, an OCH (obstacle clearance height above the threshold or the airfield elevation) is defined, typically somewhere between 90 to 150 meters (≈ 290' to 490'), which for a typical Russian 240' glideslope corresponds to about 1900 to 3200 meters of horizontal visibility. Obviously, the reported wx was not quite adequate for these minimums.
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Old 23rd Apr 2010, 09:47
  #894 (permalink)  
 
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Self-correction on TU-204.
It didn't fly having "fire all along on board" . But a smoke initially, at some wire in the cabin, returned back to airport, checked/fixed it, and took off again, with the same passangers on board.

Sorry, I am no aviator; what I wrote initially is what our Russian newspaper told us.
See what media does with us general audiences :o)
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Old 23rd Apr 2010, 10:03
  #895 (permalink)  
 
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Rachinsky, Commander of the Polish Air Force regiment (special regiment No 36), part of which the crew were, told in the interview to the Polish TVN24 that
"it is painful for me to hear in mass media information that Capt. Protasiuk didn't know Smolensk aerodrome. He was flying there every year on Katyn' tragedy anniversary. Sometimes was flying there twice a year. The aerodrome he knew excellently well." and "I don't have one other pilot who flew to Smolesnk as frequently as Protasiuk." "Did he make a mistake or not - only the investigation can tell."

Protasiuk became Commander of the crew in 2008, after the previous one retired, but overall he was flying the Polish leaders for 13 years."

_______
From other sources Protasiuk graduated from Air Force academy in 1997, and then had 2 higher educations more on top. One Diploma in journalism and politology, the next Diploma technical again, in cybernetics.
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Old 23rd Apr 2010, 10:47
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Hi jcjeant
just briefly looked at that thread
and you are right ,comparing to that , 4 weeks is short
but the question is , why ?
why not kill all the rumours and conspiracy theories and give information to the people?
why all that we are getting is more like missinformation ?
is there something to hide ?
in both cases
One thing is sure for me. They did it in a most inappropriate and irresponsible way they could.
Why did they promise to release the full script on Thursday, then organized a press conference to say "obviously we have to wait for this and that and that, not sure if we can release anything before the investigation has been finished"???
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Old 23rd Apr 2010, 11:00
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Old 23rd Apr 2010, 11:45
  #898 (permalink)  
 
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airport chart

from Sergey Amielin blog posts by Tom tu154 pilot
"It's interesting to observe the location of runway thresholds, inner and outer NDB in the Google Earth. Did the crew use the runway 26 threshold raw coordinates (from the chart) with their FMS to assist with the approach? It would explain they were slightly to the south. Definitely the coordinates are not iaw WGS-84 or PZ-90.02. Did they create VNAV profile in FMS? Did they err with meters and feet, AMSL (above mean sea level), AAL (above aerodrome level) - these are some of the questions - need CVR asap."

"
One can observe divergences between the true runway course indicated on the chart 266d46m and true runway course in Google Earth 266d73m. All coordinates seem to be shifted to the east by 180-300 m, but while runway threshold coordinates are shifted 30 m to the south, the inner NDB coordinates are shifted to the north by 100 m. I wonder if and what coordinates were entered to FMS by the crew"
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Old 23rd Apr 2010, 12:08
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The crew of Yak-40 which landed before the Tu-154, warned them against the fog

... both planes had radio contact with each other. In their view, the crew talked with them when the presidential Tupolev was still in the air, and Yak-40 has landed on the airport runway.

Pilots passed the information to colleagues about the weather in Smolensk. They said that the weather is getting worse by the minute- say newspaper informants. In particular, warned of the thickening fog. One of the pilots' claims that such correspondence is a kind of procedure that apply to pilots of the squad - whenever possible, to communicate important information to their colleagues.

Google T?umacz
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Old 23rd Apr 2010, 12:41
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The map confirms 6.1 km outer NDB and 1.1 km inner NDB.
2.40 deg glide slope.

300m at outer, 70m at inner.
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