Polish Government Tu154M crash
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Well said mcdhu.
Captainplaystation - at your current rate of posting you will have the final report polished off by five o' clock - fully inclusive of cause and contributory factors. Has it not occurred to you that most here have no interest in the speculative nonsense that you spout while a nation is grieving?
It's Saturday today, so no school for you. Why not go back to your computer game and wait for facts to emerge, or watch cartoons on the telly?
Captainplaystation - at your current rate of posting you will have the final report polished off by five o' clock - fully inclusive of cause and contributory factors. Has it not occurred to you that most here have no interest in the speculative nonsense that you spout while a nation is grieving?
It's Saturday today, so no school for you. Why not go back to your computer game and wait for facts to emerge, or watch cartoons on the telly?
Although we don't know at this point in time if it was a factor, pressure to get in can indeed be a dangerous thing.
A Danish government G-III crashed on approach to Vagar some years ago. It was carrying the chief of the RDAF, who were heard on the CVR ordering the pilots to shoot an approach in very poor weather. That flight ended in a CFIT accident, killing all onboard.
A Danish government G-III crashed on approach to Vagar some years ago. It was carrying the chief of the RDAF, who were heard on the CVR ordering the pilots to shoot an approach in very poor weather. That flight ended in a CFIT accident, killing all onboard.
To clarify runway length confusion:
Smolensk has two airfields, Smolensk North and Smolensk South. Both have similarly aligned (08/26) 50m wide runways. The North one is the military airfield with 2470m runway, the south one is a small civilian/utility airfield with 1550m runway. The accident must have happened at the North one. On Google Earth I cannot discern any approach lighting system in place, even though the resolution is very good.
Smolensk has two airfields, Smolensk North and Smolensk South. Both have similarly aligned (08/26) 50m wide runways. The North one is the military airfield with 2470m runway, the south one is a small civilian/utility airfield with 1550m runway. The accident must have happened at the North one. On Google Earth I cannot discern any approach lighting system in place, even though the resolution is very good.
Passenger list (google translation)
Lista osób na pok?adzie Tupolewa- Onet.pl - Wiadomo?ci -10.04.2010
OFFICIAL DELEGATION
1st Mr Ryszard Kaczorowski, former president of Poland in Exile
2nd Mr. Krzysztof Putra Sejm Marshal
3rd Mr. Jerzy Szmajdzinski Sejm Marshal
4th Krystyna Bochenek Deputy Senate
5th BAHR Jerzy Ambassador of the Russian Federation
6th Mr. Wladyslaw STASIAK Chief Presidential Chancellery
7th Mr. Aleksander Szczyglo Head of National Security
8th Mr. Paul WYPYCH Secretary of State in the President's Chancellery
9th Mariusz Handzlik Undersecretary of State in the President's Chancellery
10th Mr. Andrzej Kremer, Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs
11th Mr. Stanisław Komorowski, Undersecretary of State in the Defence
12th Mr. Tomasz Merta Undersecretary of State in the Ministry of Culture
13th Gen. Francis Gągor Chief of General Staff of Polish Army
14th Mr Andrew CARRIER Secretary ROPWiM
15th Mr. Maciej Plazynski President of the Association "Polish Community"
16th Mariusz KAZANA MFA Diplomatic Protocol Director
PARLIAMENT REPRESENTATIVES RP
1st Mr. Leszek Deptuła deputy to the Sejm
2nd Mr. Gregory Dolniak deputy to the Sejm
3rd Ms. Grazyna Gęsicka deputy to the Sejm
4th Mr. Przemyslaw Gosiewski deputy to the Sejm
5th Lord Sebastian KARPINIUK deputy to the Sejm
6th Ms. Izabela Jaruga - Nowacka Deputy to the Sejm
7th Mr. Zbigniew Wassermann deputy to the Sejm
8th Ms. Alexander Natallia - WORLD Member of the Sejm
10th Mr. Arkadiusz Rybicki deputy to the Sejm
11th Jolanta Szymanek - Deresz Member of the Sejm
12th Wiesław WATER deputy to the Sejm
13th Mr. Edward Wojtas deputy to the Sejm
14th Janina FETLIŃSKA Senator RP
15th Mr. Stanislaw ZAJAC Senator RP
ACCOMPANYING PERSONS
1st Mr. Janusz Kochanowski Ombudsman
2nd Mr Sławomir Skrzypek, President of the Polish National Bank
3rd Janusz Kurtyka President of the Institute of National Remembrance
4th Janusz Krupski Director of the Office for War Veterans and Repressed Persons
REPRESENTATIVES Churches and Religious Affairs
1st Fr. Bp. Maj.-Gen. Tadeusz Ploski Ordinary of the Polish Army
2nd Archbishop Brig. Miron Chodakowski Orthodox Ordinary Polish Army
3rd Fr. Col. Adam Pilch Field Protestant Chaplaincy
4th Fr. Lt. Col. John OSIŃSKI Ordinariate of the Polish Army
Katyn Families REPRESENTATIVES AND OTHER SOCIETIES
1st Mr. Edward Duchnowski Secretary General of Association of Siberian Deportees
2nd Fr. Monsignor Bronislaw Gostomski
3rd Fr. Association President Joseph Joniec Parafiada
4th Fr. Zdzislaw KING Chaplain Warsaw Katyn Families 1987-2007
5th Fr. Chaplain Andrew Kwasnik Federation of Katyn Families
6th Pan Tadeusz LUTOBORSKI
7th Bozena Łojek President of the Polish Foundation for Katyn
8th Mr. Stefan Melaka Katyn Committee Chairman
9th Mr. Stanisław Mikke Vice ROPWiM
10th Mrs. Bronislaw Orawiec - Löffler
11th Ms. Catherine Piskorska
12th Mr Andrew SARIUSZ - SKĄPSKI President of the Federation of Katyn Families
13th Mr Wojciech SEWERYN
14th Mr. Leszek Solski
15th Ms. Teresa Walewska - PRZYJAŁKOWSKA Foundation Golgotha of the East "
16th Ms. Gabriela Zych
17th Ewa Bąkowska granddaughter Brig. Mieczyslaw Smorawinski
18th Mrs. Maria Borowska
19th Mr. Bartosz BOROWSKI
20th Dariusz MALINOWSKI
REPRESENTATIVES OF THE ARMED FORCES RP
1st Gen. Bronislaw KWIATKOWSKI Operational Commander of Polish Armed Forces
2nd Gen. pil. Andrew Błasik Polish Air Force Commander
3rd Maj.-Gen. Tadeusz BUK Commander of Land Forces of Poland
4th Maj.-Gen. Vladimir POTASIŃSKI Polish Special Forces Commander
5th Vice Admiral Andrzej Karweta Commander Navy
6th Brig. Kazimierz GILARSKI Commander Training Centre
Lista osób na pok?adzie Tupolewa- Onet.pl - Wiadomo?ci -10.04.2010
OFFICIAL DELEGATION
1st Mr Ryszard Kaczorowski, former president of Poland in Exile
2nd Mr. Krzysztof Putra Sejm Marshal
3rd Mr. Jerzy Szmajdzinski Sejm Marshal
4th Krystyna Bochenek Deputy Senate
5th BAHR Jerzy Ambassador of the Russian Federation
6th Mr. Wladyslaw STASIAK Chief Presidential Chancellery
7th Mr. Aleksander Szczyglo Head of National Security
8th Mr. Paul WYPYCH Secretary of State in the President's Chancellery
9th Mariusz Handzlik Undersecretary of State in the President's Chancellery
10th Mr. Andrzej Kremer, Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs
11th Mr. Stanisław Komorowski, Undersecretary of State in the Defence
12th Mr. Tomasz Merta Undersecretary of State in the Ministry of Culture
13th Gen. Francis Gągor Chief of General Staff of Polish Army
14th Mr Andrew CARRIER Secretary ROPWiM
15th Mr. Maciej Plazynski President of the Association "Polish Community"
16th Mariusz KAZANA MFA Diplomatic Protocol Director
PARLIAMENT REPRESENTATIVES RP
1st Mr. Leszek Deptuła deputy to the Sejm
2nd Mr. Gregory Dolniak deputy to the Sejm
3rd Ms. Grazyna Gęsicka deputy to the Sejm
4th Mr. Przemyslaw Gosiewski deputy to the Sejm
5th Lord Sebastian KARPINIUK deputy to the Sejm
6th Ms. Izabela Jaruga - Nowacka Deputy to the Sejm
7th Mr. Zbigniew Wassermann deputy to the Sejm
8th Ms. Alexander Natallia - WORLD Member of the Sejm
10th Mr. Arkadiusz Rybicki deputy to the Sejm
11th Jolanta Szymanek - Deresz Member of the Sejm
12th Wiesław WATER deputy to the Sejm
13th Mr. Edward Wojtas deputy to the Sejm
14th Janina FETLIŃSKA Senator RP
15th Mr. Stanislaw ZAJAC Senator RP
ACCOMPANYING PERSONS
1st Mr. Janusz Kochanowski Ombudsman
2nd Mr Sławomir Skrzypek, President of the Polish National Bank
3rd Janusz Kurtyka President of the Institute of National Remembrance
4th Janusz Krupski Director of the Office for War Veterans and Repressed Persons
REPRESENTATIVES Churches and Religious Affairs
1st Fr. Bp. Maj.-Gen. Tadeusz Ploski Ordinary of the Polish Army
2nd Archbishop Brig. Miron Chodakowski Orthodox Ordinary Polish Army
3rd Fr. Col. Adam Pilch Field Protestant Chaplaincy
4th Fr. Lt. Col. John OSIŃSKI Ordinariate of the Polish Army
Katyn Families REPRESENTATIVES AND OTHER SOCIETIES
1st Mr. Edward Duchnowski Secretary General of Association of Siberian Deportees
2nd Fr. Monsignor Bronislaw Gostomski
3rd Fr. Association President Joseph Joniec Parafiada
4th Fr. Zdzislaw KING Chaplain Warsaw Katyn Families 1987-2007
5th Fr. Chaplain Andrew Kwasnik Federation of Katyn Families
6th Pan Tadeusz LUTOBORSKI
7th Bozena Łojek President of the Polish Foundation for Katyn
8th Mr. Stefan Melaka Katyn Committee Chairman
9th Mr. Stanisław Mikke Vice ROPWiM
10th Mrs. Bronislaw Orawiec - Löffler
11th Ms. Catherine Piskorska
12th Mr Andrew SARIUSZ - SKĄPSKI President of the Federation of Katyn Families
13th Mr Wojciech SEWERYN
14th Mr. Leszek Solski
15th Ms. Teresa Walewska - PRZYJAŁKOWSKA Foundation Golgotha of the East "
16th Ms. Gabriela Zych
17th Ewa Bąkowska granddaughter Brig. Mieczyslaw Smorawinski
18th Mrs. Maria Borowska
19th Mr. Bartosz BOROWSKI
20th Dariusz MALINOWSKI
REPRESENTATIVES OF THE ARMED FORCES RP
1st Gen. Bronislaw KWIATKOWSKI Operational Commander of Polish Armed Forces
2nd Gen. pil. Andrew Błasik Polish Air Force Commander
3rd Maj.-Gen. Tadeusz BUK Commander of Land Forces of Poland
4th Maj.-Gen. Vladimir POTASIŃSKI Polish Special Forces Commander
5th Vice Admiral Andrzej Karweta Commander Navy
6th Brig. Kazimierz GILARSKI Commander Training Centre
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Polish military sources are quoted by the media as saying that 30mins before the crash a Russian military plane IL-76 was sent back to Moscow's Vnukovo airport because of poor conditions. It was piloted by someone very familiar with the Smolensk airport, who after two approaches decided it was not a good idea. Landing at Minsk airport instead of Smolensk was suggested to the pilots of the Polish plane....
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Which airfield?
CNN keeps showing and saying that there is only one airfield at Smolensk, and shows the Google image of a military airfield 1500m long, which looks too short.
However, there is a civilian field north of Smolensk with 2500m. Surely this is the field it was trying, as 1500m, seems a little short for TU154?
However, there is a civilian field north of Smolensk with 2500m. Surely this is the field it was trying, as 1500m, seems a little short for TU154?
Not for the first time, CNN has it wrong. The South one with the short runway is the civilian field, the military field with the long runway being the North.
CNN quotes a russian official saying the accident happened on the outskirts of Pechersk, a town just north of the Northern military field. If this statement is true (as it appears to be), then the accident happened while the a/c was circling the field following go-around, not during approach.
CNN quotes a russian official saying the accident happened on the outskirts of Pechersk, a town just north of the Northern military field. If this statement is true (as it appears to be), then the accident happened while the a/c was circling the field following go-around, not during approach.
Last edited by andrasz; 10th Apr 2010 at 11:18.
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Taf/metar
It seems that Smolensk has no ICAO code but only an IATA one.
No METAR or TAF is available except a report called synop with a special coding. The WMO ID of Smolensk is 26781 and the only informations that I could find are below:
SYNOPS from 26781, Smolensk (Russia)
SI 10/04/2010 09:00-> AAXX 10091 26781 41396 80904 10027 20022 39956 40253 54000 71042 886//
333 88707=
SM 10/04/2010 06:00-> AAXX 10061 26781 31/93 91403 10009 20009 39956 40255 53003 74540
333 20005=
SI 10/04/2010 03:00-> AAXX 10031 26781 41996 01102 10005 21006 39953 40253 54000 71000
333 55074=
SM 10/04/2010 00:00-> AAXX 10001 26781 42997 01402 10030 21005 39953 40250 54000=
SI 09/04/2010 21:00-> AAXX 09211 26781 42997 71402 10061 21005 39953 40247 53003 87030=
SM 09/04/2010 18:00-> AAXX 09181 26781 32997 01102 10092 20002 39950 40241 54000
333 10160=
SI 09/04/2010 15:00-> AAXX 09151 26781 42597 31304 10141 21002 39950 40235 57015 83200=
SM 09/04/2010 12:00-> AAXX 09121 26781 42597 31103 10139 20029 39965 40250 57012 83200=
Sources : Ogimet.com// or metaf2xml: parse and decode METAR, TAF, and SYNOP and store as XML for a decoding.
or :
Meteorological Resources - SYNOP
Still trying to decipher...
No METAR or TAF is available except a report called synop with a special coding. The WMO ID of Smolensk is 26781 and the only informations that I could find are below:
SYNOPS from 26781, Smolensk (Russia)
SI 10/04/2010 09:00-> AAXX 10091 26781 41396 80904 10027 20022 39956 40253 54000 71042 886//
333 88707=
SM 10/04/2010 06:00-> AAXX 10061 26781 31/93 91403 10009 20009 39956 40255 53003 74540
333 20005=
SI 10/04/2010 03:00-> AAXX 10031 26781 41996 01102 10005 21006 39953 40253 54000 71000
333 55074=
SM 10/04/2010 00:00-> AAXX 10001 26781 42997 01402 10030 21005 39953 40250 54000=
SI 09/04/2010 21:00-> AAXX 09211 26781 42997 71402 10061 21005 39953 40247 53003 87030=
SM 09/04/2010 18:00-> AAXX 09181 26781 32997 01102 10092 20002 39950 40241 54000
333 10160=
SI 09/04/2010 15:00-> AAXX 09151 26781 42597 31304 10141 21002 39950 40235 57015 83200=
SM 09/04/2010 12:00-> AAXX 09121 26781 42597 31103 10139 20029 39965 40250 57012 83200=
Sources : Ogimet.com// or metaf2xml: parse and decode METAR, TAF, and SYNOP and store as XML for a decoding.
or :
Meteorological Resources - SYNOP
Still trying to decipher...
To me the most incredible is to have the complete top brass of the Polish Armed Forces on the same aircraft. While the civilian delegation was mainly 2nd/3rd ranking officials and not unusual in composition, the top six commanding generals were all on the flight. I'm sure in an organisation where there is a regulation on how to tie shoelaces, there must have been a rule against this...
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Aviation weather in Smolensk today
According to History : Weather Underground between 7:00 AM and 10:00 AM this morning the visibility at Smolensk airport changed from 4 kilometers to 0.5 kilometers, the conditions from mist to heavy fog!
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I can't believe amount of cr@p written here by presumingly Polish posters. Crash is the tragedy. When it comes to the rest, make your facts right:
1. Both VIP 154M, reg 101 and 102 were built in 1990 and delivered new to Poland, later avionics was upgraded. They are same age as US VC25 (Air Force One).
2. 154M is not very economical airplane for airlines, but it is technically sound and reliable aircraft.
3. ATC offered them first divert to Minsk, later when handled over to Russians, they offered to divert to Moscow.
4. It looks they've attempted 4 approaches. There is no ILS at military Smolensk-North.
1. Both VIP 154M, reg 101 and 102 were built in 1990 and delivered new to Poland, later avionics was upgraded. They are same age as US VC25 (Air Force One).
2. 154M is not very economical airplane for airlines, but it is technically sound and reliable aircraft.
3. ATC offered them first divert to Minsk, later when handled over to Russians, they offered to divert to Moscow.
4. It looks they've attempted 4 approaches. There is no ILS at military Smolensk-North.
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This particular airplane has been overhauled recently.
Reporters now say, that the airplane circled the airport couple times. They are not sure how many approaches it attempted.
Reporters now say, that the airplane circled the airport couple times. They are not sure how many approaches it attempted.
I can't believe amount of cr@p written here by presumingly Polish posters.
1. Both VIP 154M, reg 101 and 102 were built in 1990 and delivered new to Poland, later avionics was upgraded. They are same age as US VC25 (Air Force One).
102 was delivered in 1994.
Arrakis
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CargoOne.
Not nice using such words...
You should mind this 154M was still using the same engines like the LOT Il-62
which crashed 1980 and 1987. Both due to uncontained engine failure.
Nothing changed on design and technology.
Please do not compare AirForceOne with these 154.
Almost every second flight of these aircraft 101 and 102 was plagued
recently by different technical issues.
Few month ago the chief of the Polish Air Force unit flying these aircraft
resigned and left the army in protest, being unable to keep the standards.
Not nice using such words...
You should mind this 154M was still using the same engines like the LOT Il-62
which crashed 1980 and 1987. Both due to uncontained engine failure.
Nothing changed on design and technology.
Please do not compare AirForceOne with these 154.
Almost every second flight of these aircraft 101 and 102 was plagued
recently by different technical issues.
Few month ago the chief of the Polish Air Force unit flying these aircraft
resigned and left the army in protest, being unable to keep the standards.
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ptkay
Hopefully you know that there is no MEL on Polish Air Force TU154M, unlike LOT 737. It is not designed to be commercially effective, and it is not dispatchable with carry-on defects. If you don't see the difference, I guess we have nothing to discuss.
When it comes to investigation, don't forget that this is not a civil aircraft and not a civil flight. None of usual arrangements you have in mind are applicable.
Almost every second flight of these aircraft 101 and 102 was plagued
recently by different technical issues.
recently by different technical issues.
When it comes to investigation, don't forget that this is not a civil aircraft and not a civil flight. None of usual arrangements you have in mind are applicable.
...this is not a civil aircraft and not a civil flight...
So no ILS, no VMC, and no MEL and no standards. Just top brass in the back insisting to land on time?
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What I do not understand is why such a group of people can be on one plane. As a GM of a middle size company I cannot take the same plane with my CFO.