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Polish Government Tu154M crash

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Polish Government Tu154M crash

Old 18th Apr 2010, 13:11
  #741 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Diego
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Ptkay: "This was not the PM, this was the President, Lech Kaczyński,
the same one who died (and his wife and 94 others) in this very accident.

The PM, Donald Tusk, behaves in a quite different way."

Thanks, I had of course intended to refer to the President in my post, not the Prime Minister - to Kaczynski, who must have left an unforgettable impression on the pilot in 2008.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 13:21
  #742 (permalink)  
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Rus. forum mentioned post Samara factory (it left it Dec 21, 2009), in Poland. May be together with the 3rd black box, Polish, monitoring technical condition of the aircraft.

But it wasn't Samara factory speaking, someone else.
And one would think, 2 quite big additions, done beyond the servicing factory - un-likely.

They closed up the lid, the moderator, on the main Rus. avia forum, "until transcripts are made public and MAK again starts publishing some factual data on the investigation".
MAK (the investigation committee) stopped publishing intermediate news since Thursday. All is on hold. Apparently, in agreement with the Polish side.

The moderator there got annoyed by fog-creationist :o) theories, and "how did Putin switch Eyjafjallajoekull on?" :o) but mostly by the lawyers' battle, who quote Chicago Convention by pages and air related laws of the Rus. Federation and ww". So the moderator wrote until anything single new becomes known, he puts the blog on hold.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 13:49
  #743 (permalink)  
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This is a photo of the landing system radar at the Smolensk-North airfield, there are also 2 NDBs there.

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Old 18th Apr 2010, 15:00
  #744 (permalink)  
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Vorra, good job.

This is exactly the same system I mentioned before,
as used in Miroslawiec, when the CASA accident happened.

Rather standard in the former Warsaw Pact AF.

This is RSP (Radiolokator Slepoj Posadki).

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Old 18th Apr 2010, 15:28
  #745 (permalink)  
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Well, so far it seems to be CASA crash redoux.
QNH vs QFE pressure readings/settings.
Poor VFR - heavy fog.
Maybe ATC <--> A/C misunderstanding.
Abnormal dose of 'Get-there-itis!".

Poor souls, may they RIP.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 18:17
  #746 (permalink)  
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I have no intention to be too clever, but have few doubts.

If A/C was at 6 meters height, we can not talk about wrong QFE/QNH. We can only talk about intentional descent below minima.

At post number 721 one can see profile of approach.


If we assume that after point where A/C was at 6 meters, crew did commence go-around, one can expect to find landing gear in UP position.

If landing gear was in DOWN position, one can assume that crew was actively looking for RWY, even if they flew just at tree top levels. Hence, climb after that point was not go-around. It was terrain folowing towards RWY THD.

Does anyone know position of landing gear after crash?
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 18:49
  #747 (permalink)  
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Maybe equipment is out to date but is reliable, electron tube, and design for war time. The thing is It need well trained staff. That's it. They had very basic equipment but they had well trained and educated staff in the past. This is quite different point of view than we've got now.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 18:56
  #748 (permalink)  
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Gears were open!

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Old 18th Apr 2010, 19:15
  #749 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2010
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Age: 41
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Plane and pilots 2,5 months ago

2,5 miesi?ca przed ?mierci? ratowali Haiti - Najwa?niejsze informacje - Informacje - portal TVN24.pl - 18.04.2010

Its a movie made 2,5 ago on the way to Haiti where the pilots delivered humanitarian aid. Left- A.Protasiuk, right, R.Grzywna (the crew that died in Smolensk). The Haiti mission was completed and they got and award from A. Błasik for a succesful mission. Now 3 mentioned are r.i.p. Their bodies are not identified till now..probably nothing left. Anyway you can see the pilots and the machine that crashed in Smolensk. Hope you all guys will have safe flights Greetings from Warsaw.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 19:49
  #750 (permalink)  
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first FDR content revealed

Hello everyone, this is my first post here but I did read all the post published so far.

Today, Apr/18, part of the flight recorders content has been revealed by the Polish investigators. The article is here (in Polish, my native language) but it's still sort of vague:

Krzyk cierpienia. Zapis czarnej skrzynki - Katastrofa w Smole?sku - Dziennik.pl

What surprises me is the statement about the voices and noises coming from the passenger cabins. Investigators say that several (which in Polish means definitely more that 20) last seconds of the recording contains increased noises and loud voices (followed by the screams of pain) of the passengers, as they already knew about the inevitable tragedy.

This does not make sense to me as all the drawing posted here suggested the the time between the first tree hit and the crash was definitely less than 10 seconds (or the distance of ~700m at the speed of 200-300 km/h).

Moreover, all what has been discussed here suggests that 30 seconds before the crash the crew did not know they were flying too low.

I am barely bringing more, hopefully reliable, facts. What do you think about them?
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 20:41
  #751 (permalink)  
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new simulation by a Russian TV

YouTube - 2010-04-18_1ch_3D_pilot_comments.mp4
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 20:45
  #752 (permalink)  
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38 pages later, and looking at graphics of their flightpath (BELOW the runway when they had the first impact! ! ) there is one question I would like to have the answer to.

What was set on the baro subscale on their altimeters ? and was this the actual QFE ?

My feeling is that this simple ( one of the oldest & deadliest) error may be a distinct possibility.

When I have more time I will relate a long story to back this up, but I am sure most of you can imagine this as a possible scenario.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 20:52
  #753 (permalink)  
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Any idea of accuracy of UAS TAWS data/maps for the Smolensk North approach?

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Old 18th Apr 2010, 21:36
  #754 (permalink)  
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YouTube - 2010-04-18_1ch_3D_pilot_comments.mp4

link to youtube page, from Smolensk forum, this you tube shows what was shown on Russian TV now, as TV idea of the last seconds of the flight.

No reasons given why initially so low, just, say, a visual, a film.
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 21:46
  #755 (permalink)  
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Smolensk forum just explained (to each other), that the previous, also Russian made, airplane, that brought in journalists, that very morning - HAD something Russian electronic for? can't explain. something for plane navigation a system allowing to go in fog. Will give a link.

And Kachinsky's TU - HASN'T. All TU-154 have, and TU-154M - and it was "M" - doesn't have it. According to Tupolev site, "when up-grading a TU154 into TU154M - that system is de?-molished? extracted out.

Likewise - when a TU154M, a new one is made to order - that navigation system is not included."

Strange "upgrade" to me, taking something nice that allows to navigate blind is extracted, but may be in the new ones - now that foreign system is put instead, and the Russian old one is not incorporated any more into the new planes or the old planes when up-grading them.

So Kachinsky plane was in disadvantage by make-up, compared to ordinary Yak. I mean, he wasn't, since he had something that foreign good instead. But may be something that foreign was not appliccable at a Russian straightforward old aerodrome ?

So the previous plane could navigate in fog
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Old 18th Apr 2010, 22:10
  #756 (permalink)  
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Any idea of accuracy of UAS TAWS data/maps for the Smolensk North approach?
Looking at the Universal Avionics web site, (they are the manufacturer of the TAWS system installed in the Tupolev) they have a list of airports that are included in the TAWS database. Smolensk is not included, therefore there would be no TAWS data or maps available to the crew.

Since no data was available, the system would degrade to a more basic Ground Proximity Warning System, and since the aircraft was set up for landing mode, a number of GPWS warnings would have been disabled to avoid nuisance alarms.
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Old 19th Apr 2010, 02:50
  #757 (permalink)  
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Ptkay, yes, this is RSP according the Smolensk forum. From what I have gathered, they employed the kind of approach where the NDBs are used to stay on course and the approach is corrected from the ATC tower using the RSP.
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Old 19th Apr 2010, 04:23
  #758 (permalink)  
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Green - Glideslope based on 300 m from the end of the runway
Glideslope at 2.66 degrees.
Black - height profile.
Yellow - Заросший лесом овраг (балка) - Wooded gully.
БПРМ - the inner NDB at 1.1 km (the small white building @number 2 in the original photo diagram).
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Old 19th Apr 2010, 08:18
  #759 (permalink)  
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something for plane navigation a system allowing to go in fog.
The 101 cockpit

Full size
Photos: Tupolev Tu-154M Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

Russian Tu cockpit:

full size:
Photos: Tupolev Tu-154M Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

There are two unidentified (for me) elements near AH and HDI...
But they are also on the 101 cockpit, so I actually can't see much "removed".

During my ground school our instructor was showing us original technical manuals of
the Tu-154, also the cockpit lay out from the original a/c as delivered 1990.

What was characteristic were two ADF displays, identical near each other.

At the same ground school, our navigation teacher, former AF major
also explained us how this two ADF were used in standard military procedures,
as well as older airline procedures to do an approach on two NDBs.

Maybe this is the "approach procedure" the Russian forum is referring to.

You still have two NDBs on many Polish military and civil airfields.

This particular Tu certainly didn't have the ADF configuration as described above.

Last edited by Ptkay; 19th Apr 2010 at 09:16.
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Old 19th Apr 2010, 09:21
  #760 (permalink)  
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Alice025, can you give the exact link to where the navigation system of the Yak-40 is discussed? I can't find it.
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