Polish Government Tu154M crash
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New facts:
Wymieniali lampy tu? po katastrofie Tu-154 - Najwa?niejsze informacje - Informacje - portal TVN24.pl - 17.04.2010
Picture tooks by journalists few hours after accidend: uniformed Russian pulling cables and installing bulbs in approach lights.
Wymieniali lampy tu? po katastrofie Tu-154 - Najwa?niejsze informacje - Informacje - portal TVN24.pl - 17.04.2010
Picture tooks by journalists few hours after accidend: uniformed Russian pulling cables and installing bulbs in approach lights.
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But I believe this applies only to local Russian flights - refer to Armavia crash, or the Aeroflot Nord one.
Anyway, one feels it's a catch 22 from the beginning, and that's why they were doomed. Return to Warsaw would be a total embarassment for the Polish side, sending them away by Russians on such an occasion could ignite the bilateral relations. Of course, with hindsight we can say that either of these outcomes would be better, but...
Anyway, one feels it's a catch 22 from the beginning, and that's why they were doomed. Return to Warsaw would be a total embarassment for the Polish side, sending them away by Russians on such an occasion could ignite the bilateral relations. Of course, with hindsight we can say that either of these outcomes would be better, but...
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Strictly speaking, for the airport the Polish airplane was not military.
One would think for them - "military" is the ones who fall under the ? own various military laws of the Russian Federation. Have to perform Defense Ministry rules, under their jurisdiction.
Now, as, clearly, the Polish plane is not the? within the authority of the Russia's Defense Ministry - what "military" there is, about it?
An ordinary foreign plane, arriving.
As the category "ordinary" does not exist :o), I think for the airport - in their perception, the airplane was civil aviation.
How it is about the law interpretation - nobody knows. They are avia people there, not lawers. But, logically thinking, it's not the first head of a state, arriving into Russia. To put it softly. They all come over, all of the time, and in own aircrafts, and one would bet many if not all of those are part of respective countries' Air Forces.
So, is there a special rule for that kind of travel, ww. ?
For the "Bort Nomer Odin" in Russian parlance, Board Number One - head of a state carrier. ?
Somehow all these travel worldwide, land in airports, and all of the time. Without a special law on them, or, like, how? to be interpreted.
Sure it's not ordinary to land at military airports of other countries, normally they arrive in normal airports, and as big as possible. But then military airports accepting civil flights is not exactly a rarity either. Egypt's Khurgada used to be a military one, before, and became at some point for tourists, no idea their formal status. One would think there are some small countries :o) where nothing but military airports exist at all.
Smolensk, for that matter, is the other way around. It used to have normal civil airport, Southern/Juzhny - but that one is closed up! for repairs, or I don't know what. temporarily, or forever.
Air travel became so expensive post Perestroyka, absolutely un-affordable, it's not 20 roubles anymore but 2 thousand dollars, say, European part of Russia - to beyond Urals. One way. With salaries 300-400 dollars a month we simply stopped flying until absolutely have to. Or holidays, once a year. All the rest is by train, large train network, and working well. I think Smolensk people simply don't need 2 airports anymore, on what money, to fly? There aren't "bufget airlines here", and foreign budget are not alllowed to do Domestic. I think that's why they closed up Juzhny/South. And only the Northern left, by fact.
And no, I don't think they expected anyone else, that day, only 3 planes - journalists that is TV people - from Poland - to broadcast the mass, Catholic mass? it was to be a religious, like, spiritual event. Russian TV was there from the day before, it was to be a church service broadcasted simultaneously in 2 countries.
Then the Russian military plane, IL, carrying I don't know who, honestly.
May be Medvedev decided to arrive as well, last minute.
For the meeting Russian delegation was already there, from the day before, the representative on behalf of Medvedev, to meet President Kachinsky. These ran to the crash site first, the meeting delegation, before any fire-brigades were there, I think. 5 min run through the runway. Or together with the fire brigades, because those drove and meeting delegation from the airport small building - ran.
Journalists the bulk, as I understood, were not in the airport, but in Katyn monument, by the 4 churches there, Catholic - Rus. Orthodox - Jewish sinagogue and Lithuanian sorry not sure which religion. Ready to cover the church service broadcast for their respective Katyn massacre people. There are victims in all 4 congregations there in the cemetery, and it was to be like a religious event. Peace-making with Poland, from the spiritual, religious point of view, in a way.
We are awful lucky we were able to make some peace with Poland the previous week, on the civillian, how to say, side. At least, by one half.
One would think for them - "military" is the ones who fall under the ? own various military laws of the Russian Federation. Have to perform Defense Ministry rules, under their jurisdiction.
Now, as, clearly, the Polish plane is not the? within the authority of the Russia's Defense Ministry - what "military" there is, about it?
An ordinary foreign plane, arriving.
As the category "ordinary" does not exist :o), I think for the airport - in their perception, the airplane was civil aviation.
How it is about the law interpretation - nobody knows. They are avia people there, not lawers. But, logically thinking, it's not the first head of a state, arriving into Russia. To put it softly. They all come over, all of the time, and in own aircrafts, and one would bet many if not all of those are part of respective countries' Air Forces.
So, is there a special rule for that kind of travel, ww. ?
For the "Bort Nomer Odin" in Russian parlance, Board Number One - head of a state carrier. ?
Somehow all these travel worldwide, land in airports, and all of the time. Without a special law on them, or, like, how? to be interpreted.
Sure it's not ordinary to land at military airports of other countries, normally they arrive in normal airports, and as big as possible. But then military airports accepting civil flights is not exactly a rarity either. Egypt's Khurgada used to be a military one, before, and became at some point for tourists, no idea their formal status. One would think there are some small countries :o) where nothing but military airports exist at all.
Smolensk, for that matter, is the other way around. It used to have normal civil airport, Southern/Juzhny - but that one is closed up! for repairs, or I don't know what. temporarily, or forever.
Air travel became so expensive post Perestroyka, absolutely un-affordable, it's not 20 roubles anymore but 2 thousand dollars, say, European part of Russia - to beyond Urals. One way. With salaries 300-400 dollars a month we simply stopped flying until absolutely have to. Or holidays, once a year. All the rest is by train, large train network, and working well. I think Smolensk people simply don't need 2 airports anymore, on what money, to fly? There aren't "bufget airlines here", and foreign budget are not alllowed to do Domestic. I think that's why they closed up Juzhny/South. And only the Northern left, by fact.
And no, I don't think they expected anyone else, that day, only 3 planes - journalists that is TV people - from Poland - to broadcast the mass, Catholic mass? it was to be a religious, like, spiritual event. Russian TV was there from the day before, it was to be a church service broadcasted simultaneously in 2 countries.
Then the Russian military plane, IL, carrying I don't know who, honestly.
May be Medvedev decided to arrive as well, last minute.
For the meeting Russian delegation was already there, from the day before, the representative on behalf of Medvedev, to meet President Kachinsky. These ran to the crash site first, the meeting delegation, before any fire-brigades were there, I think. 5 min run through the runway. Or together with the fire brigades, because those drove and meeting delegation from the airport small building - ran.
Journalists the bulk, as I understood, were not in the airport, but in Katyn monument, by the 4 churches there, Catholic - Rus. Orthodox - Jewish sinagogue and Lithuanian sorry not sure which religion. Ready to cover the church service broadcast for their respective Katyn massacre people. There are victims in all 4 congregations there in the cemetery, and it was to be like a religious event. Peace-making with Poland, from the spiritual, religious point of view, in a way.
We are awful lucky we were able to make some peace with Poland the previous week, on the civillian, how to say, side. At least, by one half.
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So, not planned planes, but after the catastrophe - 1/2 of Moscow got there, somehow? Shoygu never "drives", he lives in the airplane, basically.
Fog dispersed, runway not damaged, surely they flew. The poor Polish side, though, all flew to Vitebsk instead, Kachinsky's brother, and Tusc and the Polish investigation committee, and from there drove to Smolensk, but you understand them.
Fog dispersed, runway not damaged, surely they flew. The poor Polish side, though, all flew to Vitebsk instead, Kachinsky's brother, and Tusc and the Polish investigation committee, and from there drove to Smolensk, but you understand them.
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From recent comments here, it seems there are suspicions and conspiracy theories circulating in Poland based upon extrapolations from the circumstances of, and response to, this accident. This is unsurprising given the human emotions and political tensions, but absolutely unsupported by any sound rationale or evidence.
It seems uncontested that the pilots were offered a clear and sincere entreaty to divert. Given the sensitive and diplomatic nature of the mission I'm sure the Russian authorities preferred not to 'forbid' landing to the Polish President or 'insist' his pilot take a certain course of action. The evidence suggests they wanted the plane to land safely and clearly expressed that this could only be ensured by diverting. What's more, given the conditions, it surely shouldn't have taken a great deal of explanation to spell out to the pilot the inadvisability of proceeding.
Whatever the speed or nature of the subsequent crash response by Russian authorities, there seems nil likelihood that any faster or better resourced emergency response would have saved lives.
Whatever ones' overall feelings about Putin et al, it doesn't take much stropping of Occam's Razor to leave them looking very peripheral to this incident...
It seems uncontested that the pilots were offered a clear and sincere entreaty to divert. Given the sensitive and diplomatic nature of the mission I'm sure the Russian authorities preferred not to 'forbid' landing to the Polish President or 'insist' his pilot take a certain course of action. The evidence suggests they wanted the plane to land safely and clearly expressed that this could only be ensured by diverting. What's more, given the conditions, it surely shouldn't have taken a great deal of explanation to spell out to the pilot the inadvisability of proceeding.
Whatever the speed or nature of the subsequent crash response by Russian authorities, there seems nil likelihood that any faster or better resourced emergency response would have saved lives.
Whatever ones' overall feelings about Putin et al, it doesn't take much stropping of Occam's Razor to leave them looking very peripheral to this incident...
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Could have been Rus. Patriarch, in that IL.
Still, Patriarch? in a Defense ministry plane? Not observed, previously, how to say.
Could be anything, simply defense ministry flight on own business. Or some Russian general, of Polish grandparents, using his eh, how to say, possibilities, to attend.
Still, Patriarch? in a Defense ministry plane? Not observed, previously, how to say.
Could be anything, simply defense ministry flight on own business. Or some Russian general, of Polish grandparents, using his eh, how to say, possibilities, to attend.
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There was an idea expressed re the sitting plan, first compartment kind a presidential suite/part, quite empty, with all in the second compartment, that this could have played its role in the TU sinking lower down than expected, before assuming horizontal flight, by inertia, when they were correcting their flight/course. At some abstract point of the flight. Because there aren't the trascripts - still.
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Well, I'm not familiar with this airfield, but people say there was no ALS whatsoever. The only approach lights were two spotlights installed at the threshold, but it's not known if they were activated at the time of crash.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Thanks Eugr - I had seen that but was hoping for more specific knowledge from a forum user here. I'm toying gently with the idea that they may have seen 'lights' in the dip from one of the industrial units there or even some floods up on the light a/c park - just another possibility. Also, assuming correctly set altimeters and someone looking in, they would have been seen 'below threshold' I think.
Korn - thanks for the cross-section. Quite thought provoking. Can anyone pinpoint the '2.5 mtr' tree on the aerial view of the site?
Korn - thanks for the cross-section. Quite thought provoking. Can anyone pinpoint the '2.5 mtr' tree on the aerial view of the site?
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Can anyone pinpoint the '2.5 mtr' tree on the aerial view of the site?
They found gear marks in the grass on that spot, the gear is 2.5m high.
Last edited by Ptkay; 17th Apr 2010 at 16:17.
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Hi,
I readed some have ideas about cut trees ...
Mething it's useless ...
The trees are where they must be ... the aircraft was not where he must be.
The trees have no responsability with this accident
Blame anything or anyone .. but not the trees.
I readed some have ideas about cut trees ...
Mething it's useless ...
The trees are where they must be ... the aircraft was not where he must be.
The trees have no responsability with this accident
Blame anything or anyone .. but not the trees.
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QFE settings
Can anyone please provide/check the following:
Pressure value provided by controller,
Pressure received, callback by crew,
Pressure value registered on FDR,
Pressure from private/independent source from the time of accident from vicinity of airport?
Pressure value provided by controller,
Pressure received, callback by crew,
Pressure value registered on FDR,
Pressure from private/independent source from the time of accident from vicinity of airport?
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A very thorough analysis of last seconds of that flight can be found here
Also. It turns out the yellow buckets are indeed approach lights.
Also. It turns out the yellow buckets are indeed approach lights.
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from guys from Smolensk
On the blog I linked to above, they wrote:
The magnitude of the deviation of the aircraft from the course to the runway can be assessed on the picture the birch cut by the aircraft and floodlights of the landing light system, which indicate the direction to the airstrip (zone 5 on the satellite image). The photo was taken perpendicular to the aircraft travel direction.
above these two images:
On the blog I linked to above, they wrote:
Величину отклонения самолета от курса на ВПП можно оценить по фото, на котором срубленная самолетом березка и фонари посадочной светосигнальной системы, которые обозначают направление на полосу (зона 5 на спутниковом снимке).
Фотография сделана перпендикулярно направлению движения самолета.
The magnitude of the deviation of the aircraft from the course to the runway can be assessed on the picture the birch cut by the aircraft and floodlights of the landing light system, which indicate the direction to the airstrip (zone 5 on the satellite image). The photo was taken perpendicular to the aircraft travel direction.
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It's not approach lights, it's standard lights used by emergency (EMERCOM) for working in the dark.
blog discussed here before.
Maybe the standard EMERCOM lights (obviously portable)
have been put on the poles remaining from the former ALS,
now defunct and non-operational since years (looking on their condition),
but certainly not an ALS system available at the moment of the Tu-154 landing.
Maybe they took these portable lights to create a make-shift "ALS"
for the Ministry of Emergency Situations aircraft landing there in the
night after the accident.
The lamps are without doubt directed to the sky.