Polish Government Tu154M crash
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Crews in the West not under pressure from top brass, I dont thinks so:-
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/65F3C...00_29jun94.pdf
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ne-1995-a.html
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/65F3C...00_29jun94.pdf
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ne-1995-a.html
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Just a thought... Spent 14 years on TU-154, very reliable plane, any A or B aircraft supersedes only in two aspects: fuel consumption and best minima+autoland. Flown Airbuses and Boeings since then, Boeing is nice but I would fly a 154 instead - if I could get the same money I get on B. Having about 2000 hrs on a 154 is nothing, poor president should have arranged somebody else... Also without being perfect in Russian and (I guess) not having much experience flying QFE didn't help. Sometimes I wonder how so called professional pilots behave and see the world so ...unprofessionally in every aspect... sorry for this.
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To put to rest the rumour of 4th approach read the interview:
Äèñïåò÷åð ðàññêàçàë î ïðè÷èíàõ êðóøåíèÿ Òó-154 : LIFE | NEWS
or the poor translation:
Google Tłumacz
- How was your yesterday's conversation with the crew?
- They were asked to go to the alternate. Они отказались. They refused.
- You offer them?
- Yes.
- For what reason?
- Because the weather began to deteriorate.
- And what was the response?
- Answer: "I have enough fuel, I'll do one approach and go to the alternate aerodrome, if I will not land."
- And we had information that he was invited to land in other cities.
- It's me who also offered it to him.
- And why did he refuse?
- You had to ask him.
- Why they took such a decision? They began to curse, or may actively insisted on his point, that you could not change his mind?
- This was a decision the commander.
- What's next? He said that he would leave for another round and go to the alternate aerodrome, right?
- No, he said that if he will not manage to land, then goes to the alternate.
So it was clearly their first approach, not 4th, he just did 3 low holding rounds
before attempting to land.
Äèñïåò÷åð ðàññêàçàë î ïðè÷èíàõ êðóøåíèÿ Òó-154 : LIFE | NEWS
or the poor translation:
Google Tłumacz
- How was your yesterday's conversation with the crew?
- They were asked to go to the alternate. Они отказались. They refused.
- You offer them?
- Yes.
- For what reason?
- Because the weather began to deteriorate.
- And what was the response?
- Answer: "I have enough fuel, I'll do one approach and go to the alternate aerodrome, if I will not land."
- And we had information that he was invited to land in other cities.
- It's me who also offered it to him.
- And why did he refuse?
- You had to ask him.
- Why they took such a decision? They began to curse, or may actively insisted on his point, that you could not change his mind?
- This was a decision the commander.
- What's next? He said that he would leave for another round and go to the alternate aerodrome, right?
- No, he said that if he will not manage to land, then goes to the alternate.
So it was clearly their first approach, not 4th, he just did 3 low holding rounds
before attempting to land.
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According the words of Russian Air Force Vicecommander gen. Aloshin it should've been a PAR approach. His description of cooperation between ATC and crew almost certainly indicates that kind of approach.
Rattler
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Squealing Pig:
"Crews in the West not under pressure from top brass, I dont thinks so:-
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/65F3C...00_29jun94.pdf
Prince Charles Prang in Isle of Islay - June 1995"
I didn’t say that there is never any pressure but the captain should be strong enough to resist; if he doesn’t, then I would question his suitability for the job.
I was a 146 training captain myself and there is no way that I would have allowed Charles to land in that situation. Indeed, I doubt that I would have been happy to land it myself given the prevailing conditions of wind and runway length. I would imagine that Charles himself would have understood that I was right, embarrassing as that might have been for him to be told that he just wasn’t up to it. But I wouldn’t be very competent at making small talk with civic dignitaries; everyone to his own
Jack
"Crews in the West not under pressure from top brass, I dont thinks so:-
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/65F3C...00_29jun94.pdf
Prince Charles Prang in Isle of Islay - June 1995"
I didn’t say that there is never any pressure but the captain should be strong enough to resist; if he doesn’t, then I would question his suitability for the job.
I was a 146 training captain myself and there is no way that I would have allowed Charles to land in that situation. Indeed, I doubt that I would have been happy to land it myself given the prevailing conditions of wind and runway length. I would imagine that Charles himself would have understood that I was right, embarrassing as that might have been for him to be told that he just wasn’t up to it. But I wouldn’t be very competent at making small talk with civic dignitaries; everyone to his own
Jack
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I wonder how so called professional pilots behave and see the world so ...unprofessionally in every aspect... sorry for this.
There is nothing to apologize for. Please remember that there are not just pilots on this website, there are other aviation professionals as well.
And then there are just others.
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Rattler,
this is wrong, according to the interview with the ATC, quoted and linked above
he "couldn't command them, just recomend".
This is not my understanding of PAR. But I might be wrong.
On the other hand the ATC complains about problems with communication,
he expected them to respond to his "suggestion" with the altitude
read back, but they didn't.
He speculates, they had problems with pronouncing the numbers in Russian,
so they chose to stay silent and continued this first approach on their own...
With the "known result", as he put it...
this is wrong, according to the interview with the ATC, quoted and linked above
he "couldn't command them, just recomend".
This is not my understanding of PAR. But I might be wrong.
On the other hand the ATC complains about problems with communication,
he expected them to respond to his "suggestion" with the altitude
read back, but they didn't.
He speculates, they had problems with pronouncing the numbers in Russian,
so they chose to stay silent and continued this first approach on their own...
With the "known result", as he put it...
Last edited by Ptkay; 11th Apr 2010 at 17:34.
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<<Pilot-student (obviously following the CFI instructions)
or CFI: "Request permission to land runway xx"
FIS: "permission granted, you can land runway xx.">>
That sounds like the kind of R/T one reads in a comic. Do they really behave like that?
Not exacly. At some busy not controled GA airports You call FIS and ask for situation on the airport. FIS told you runway in use, circle pattern, how many planes is at the traffic pattern and ask you to call on a position like downwind or final... If you are on final You told to FIS - final full stop, or final t/g. Then FIS give you wind information and granted to land, what give you information that runway is clear. But it is only information for You. You don't have to following the instructions.
or CFI: "Request permission to land runway xx"
FIS: "permission granted, you can land runway xx.">>
That sounds like the kind of R/T one reads in a comic. Do they really behave like that?
Not exacly. At some busy not controled GA airports You call FIS and ask for situation on the airport. FIS told you runway in use, circle pattern, how many planes is at the traffic pattern and ask you to call on a position like downwind or final... If you are on final You told to FIS - final full stop, or final t/g. Then FIS give you wind information and granted to land, what give you information that runway is clear. But it is only information for You. You don't have to following the instructions.
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He speculates, they had problems with pronouncing the numbers in Russian,
so the chose to stay silent and continued this first approach on their own...
so the chose to stay silent and continued this first approach on their own...
Isn't the internationally recognised language for ATC English?
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According to commander, total flight time he accumulated 1939 hr. He has no airline experience. They had very poor money for they job around 1000 Euro per month. They practice very rare. You can imagine how looks his motivation. PAR is not in use in Poland. Lighting system in Russian Runways is different! Plane is reliable good maintained but difficult see approaches Tu 154 on youtube.
Best Regards
Best Regards
Isn't the internationally recognised language for ATC English?
Surprised that ATC was allowed to talk to the press.
Arrakis
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Jeez, 2000hr command (or was it really 1939 TOTAL ? 
) isn't much experience (and over so many years) to be flying VIP's around, you would be lucky to get a sniff at DEC in some locos with that command experience, & usual total required is minimum around 3500hrs. Goes to show
A- It wasn't such a great job if that was the most experience they could attract/keep (1000€ a month , well, better use in Poland than the rest of Europe, but hardly a good wage,) did Mr President not mind /know he was being flown around by underpaid inexperienced pilots, or did he only care that they landed where he told them ?
B- These boys probably wanted & needed to keep the boss happy as they didn't have that much marketable experience, and on a fairly useless type, to go job hunting anywhere decent.
Bit of a bum deal really, having to shoot approaches in wx below minima /language problems/unfamiliar procedures PAR QFE etc etc, maybe we shouldn't be SO surprised at the outcome.
Whilst it has no influence on the tragic end, happy to hear it WASN'T the 4th approach at least.
) isn't much experience (and over so many years) to be flying VIP's around, you would be lucky to get a sniff at DEC in some locos with that command experience, & usual total required is minimum around 3500hrs. Goes to show A- It wasn't such a great job if that was the most experience they could attract/keep (1000€ a month , well, better use in Poland than the rest of Europe, but hardly a good wage,) did Mr President not mind /know he was being flown around by underpaid inexperienced pilots, or did he only care that they landed where he told them ?
B- These boys probably wanted & needed to keep the boss happy as they didn't have that much marketable experience, and on a fairly useless type, to go job hunting anywhere decent.
Bit of a bum deal really, having to shoot approaches in wx below minima /language problems/unfamiliar procedures PAR QFE etc etc, maybe we shouldn't be SO surprised at the outcome.
Whilst it has no influence on the tragic end, happy to hear it WASN'T the 4th approach at least.
Last edited by captplaystation; 11th Apr 2010 at 17:33.
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Col Tomasz Pietrzyk, former commander of the Tu-154 Squadron
who left his position and the army in 2008 in protest against poor safety standards
in his unit commented today in an interview with the TVP 2:
1. Smolensk has no "western" navigation aids. No ILS, no VOR.
2. Smolensk is "difficult" in poor weather conditions.
3. Smolensk is similar to Mieroslawiec (where CASA crashed)
only "suggestions" form the ATC, so this confirms, it was PAR approach.
(Miroslawiec CASA tragic approach was PAR).
4. The ATC in Smolensk didn't declare the airfield "closed", they just
"suggested" alternate.
5. They did 4 holding circuits, not approaches, this was the first landing attempt...
He concluded:
"I will not speculate".
who left his position and the army in 2008 in protest against poor safety standards
in his unit commented today in an interview with the TVP 2:
1. Smolensk has no "western" navigation aids. No ILS, no VOR.
2. Smolensk is "difficult" in poor weather conditions.
3. Smolensk is similar to Mieroslawiec (where CASA crashed)
only "suggestions" form the ATC, so this confirms, it was PAR approach.
(Miroslawiec CASA tragic approach was PAR).
4. The ATC in Smolensk didn't declare the airfield "closed", they just
"suggested" alternate.
5. They did 4 holding circuits, not approaches, this was the first landing attempt...
He concluded:
"I will not speculate".
Last edited by Ptkay; 11th Apr 2010 at 17:38.
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Isn't the internationally recognised language for ATC English?
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Having done a few par and sra approaches, I don't think it was a par... The controller supposed to talk during approach, but according to the site above he was asking for altitude with no answer - so he did not have radar of any kind. Forgot wich one is wich, during one approach the controller gives headings leading to final,then headings again on final, and order for descent to minima. During the other one the controller is talking down the ac, giving orders like turn left 2 degrees, rod 800, keep it and so on, continuously - that is the real military one. But these approaches need ground equipment, special radar .
More than just an ATCO
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ICAO Standards on language used
FWIW
Note: only applicable to Civil airfields, The military can do what they like,
Note: only applicable to Civil airfields, The military can do what they like,
In which languages does a licence holder need to demonstrate proficiency?
Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.
For more information, please refer to Annex 1, Chapter 1, paragraph 1.2.9 and Attachment to Annex 1, and also to Annex 10, Volume II, Chapter 5. Please, also refer to the FAQ "Guidance on the evaluation of language proficiency".
Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.
For more information, please refer to Annex 1, Chapter 1, paragraph 1.2.9 and Attachment to Annex 1, and also to Annex 10, Volume II, Chapter 5. Please, also refer to the FAQ "Guidance on the evaluation of language proficiency".
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The resemblance to the CASA accident are striking
