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Near midair over SFO

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Near midair over SFO

Old 1st Apr 2010, 23:40
  #81 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: alameda
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I remember meeting guys who flew their own king airs....and when on IFR clearances they would put on the ''hood'' to practice their instrument flying. But they didn't have a safety pilot looking out the window.

These pilots posed a danger to all.

And so does any policy which says that a takeoff is ''an inside maneuver'' .

I hope you think about looking out the window...it is a regulation in the USA to always be vigilant for other planes while in visual conditions. Mind you , you are still on an IFR clearance, but a non IFR plane might run into you. Or a misguided IFR plane.
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Old 1st Apr 2010, 23:44
  #82 (permalink)  
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There is no "formal" corridor through the "TCA" which we have referred to as "Class B" airspace for over ten years now. This route is inside the inner 7NM core airspace of SFO. It's not like LAX which has a formal VFR corridor along the coast.

This is a VFR route that has developed and been accepted by the SFO controllers and local GA operators as a shortcut from the City of San Francisco to the GA airports southwest of SFO. In order to enter the airspace, the GA aircraft accepts a discrete Transponder code, and must read back the clearance.

Depending on traffic and WX conditions, clearance is either grated or denied. Those of us who use this corridor accept these "rules".

When departing San Carlos Airport, a clearance can be obtained from Ground Control.

Denial of clearance means a detour to the coastline and, if you want to remain within gliding distance of the coastline, a descent to 700 ft. for about 5 miles. Not an awful detour, the view is beautiful.

As I said earlier, conditions change and SFO tower will change the clearance as they require.

I have to say that the controllers at SFO are some of the sharpest and most professional that I have ever run across.

Thread drift ahead!

I was shooting an aerial photo job in the Oyster Point area (in the SFO inner core) one day last year, I had co-ordinated the job with a phone call to SFO Tower. Traffic out of SFO was light, and the controller, who had been watching me work, asked if I would fly by the tower so he could take a closer look at my Helio Courier which is a rather unusual airplane. Here's a bit about the airplane -- Handley-Page leading edge slats, slotted Fowler Flaps and a very large wing:

Chamois Moon - Helio Courier
Robert Campbell is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2010, 23:50
  #83 (permalink)  
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Location: US
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I can guarantee you Hornet has not slammed the throttles around acting like John Wayne. He knows how to fly a nice smooth flight with or without automation. Looking out the window is good when you are traveling at high speeds no matter what vehicle you are in, especially an airplane because they have a tendency to fall when parts fall off because you were on the radio or cell in a car or staring at instruments. Birds don't have TCAS and can put you in rivers. Most of the time they can be seen and avoided but most here will disagree with that statement.

Try flying into the valley at Tegucigalpa, Honduras and not looking out the window. Those turkey buzzards can really fill up a windshield if you don't pay attention.
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Old 2nd Apr 2010, 00:15
  #84 (permalink)  
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ATC should be assuring a safe departure corridor in the first place
I would have to agree, and the FAA have apparently agreed that the controller was at fault. They will not be taking any action other than ensuring that some retraining is undertaken.

The NTSB may have another view, but I doubt if that will change much.

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Old 2nd Apr 2010, 00:23
  #85 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2009
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[QUOTE][That set off the TCAS ......", and "We need to talk/QUOTE]

The Female Pilot should have told the Controller after the Incident, Tower let me know when you are ready to copy a Phone Number, as I need you to call me after I Land!!!
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Old 2nd Apr 2010, 00:25
  #86 (permalink)  
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thanks P51...but wasn't John Wayne Great in "Flying Tigers", and slapping Robert Stack in that DC4 in "The High and the Mighty"...but I digress.

I invite all of you guys to think about what you would do at 1000' if you had to level off to avoid traffic above you...I mean, exactly what you would do?

I think I would turn off all automation, throttle back to about half and point the nose towards level flight or a bit lower. then I would double check everything and make adjustments as needed.

I don't think some of you would know what to do. So think about it. Think about what percent N1 or what EPR would hold level flight at max weight at min safe speed. Now it is dependent upon you to know this stuff...you are the pilot.

Some of us had to learn ''drift out'' procedures at airports with very strict noise abatement procedures...You were on the edge of the stall for about a minute departing the airport with the same name as the movie star referenced above.

I've had ATC clear me for a takeoff with a fuel truck parked on my runway...and you think they might not miss a plane in the departure corridor????????
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Old 2nd Apr 2010, 01:33
  #87 (permalink)  
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John Wayne hated Orange County airport because his house on the Pacific was under the departure path. We went to his house by mistake one night to deliver a Mercedes to his neighbor. We were charter pilots then flying a Citation to Palm Springs to pick it up. He was a cool guy even though he was asleep when we got there so didn't talk to him.

He must have rolled over in his grave when they named the airport after him. That departure was fun. We always briefed the pax about the deep cut at 1,000 ft and the left turn down the creek.

That would be a marginal departure using all automation. It is amazing how your right hand and left hand can control an aircraft with precision by just holding the thrust levers and yoke. It is so magically simple while you are looking out the window. Kind of like your brain is connected directly to the controls without any button pushing. Wait, isn't that how the human body is supposed to work?
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Old 2nd Apr 2010, 04:50
  #88 (permalink)  
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p51 guy is right again

isn't it all about ''being one with the plane''?

Imagine...pressing buttons to activate your arm to stretch up to reach an itch.
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Old 2nd Apr 2010, 13:36
  #89 (permalink)  
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How much play an incident like this gets is dependent on what else is in the news. News programs are fixed length, while life is variable.

I've heard the Orange County deep cut noise abatement departure called, "An FAA approved unsafe maneuver." It's BTFW to about 1,000 feet, then back to just above stall for stagger out to the coastline.

It's also nearly the shortest commercial runway in the US, at 5700 feet.

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Old 2nd Apr 2010, 16:49
  #90 (permalink)  
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"This was a non event."

Let's try to figure out what this means. I'm guessing he means "The pilot didn't like what happened, but you know what snivelers pilots are; obviously everything was hunky-dory. I know this because I was there and he wasn't-- or maybe the other way around, but in any case his opinion is clearly worthless compared to mine."

Have any passengers on the 777 been heard from?
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Old 2nd Apr 2010, 20:14
  #91 (permalink)  
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the faa has indicated that this incident did not result in a loss of seperation, due to instructions by ATC to maintain visual seperation.

its interesting to note that the FO pushed forward on the controls...but didn't pull back on the throttles.
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Old 2nd Apr 2010, 21:13
  #92 (permalink)  
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"this incident did not result in a loss of seperation"

In other words, he didn't hit him. As long as he misses him, no "loss of separation" has occurred-- right?
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Old 2nd Apr 2010, 21:32
  #93 (permalink)  
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I would like to hear how the GA pilot felt about this whole incident. He turned slightly behind the departing aircraft so probably felt well clear of any conflict. If he had concern he would have made a much more aggresive turn. He was above the wake so he was fine. In the US maintaining visual separation removes minimum separation. I have had aircraft overshoot and reintercept the localizer below legal standards so just told approach I had the traffic and would maintain visual behind him to help the controller out. Now all you hope is he clears the runway for you when he lands.
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Old 2nd Apr 2010, 23:14
  #94 (permalink)  
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Which is why I dislike operating in the US. A TCAS RA is a non event? Visual separation removes IFR separation minima? Mixing GA a/c with big commercial jets?

Honestly, I can just see you all in those ten gallon hats and spurs on the flight deck.
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Old 3rd Apr 2010, 00:11
  #95 (permalink)  
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That is why we prefer our system of aviation. We can all enjoy flying our personal private aircraft without European restrictions. We get to fly unrestricted out of our private airstrips and not have to put up with restrictive rules unless we are in protected airspace.

We like it that way and the last guy I saw with a hat flying an airplane in the USA was Bob Hoover after his famous dead stick landing from ground level around to a landing after his roll on downwind in his Aero Commander Shrike at Reno. We are all professionals and the cowboy comment for US pilots was uncalled for.

I am proud of our aviation system and think it is the best way to let all fly as they wish without undo restrictions. The sky isn't just for commercial aviation the same as the highway is not just for buses.
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Old 3rd Apr 2010, 03:34
  #96 (permalink)  
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Class B? Notwithstanding how close they got, did a separation standard exist (at all times)?
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Old 3rd Apr 2010, 13:44
  #97 (permalink)  
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Class B? Notwithstanding how close they got, did a separation standard exist (at all times)?
In class B airspace in the US, VFR aircraft are separated from aircraft weighing more than 19000 lbs or jets by:

- 1.5 miles horizontal, or
- 500 ft vertical, or
- Visual separation

(FAAO 7110.65 Sec 7.9.4)
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Old 3rd Apr 2010, 14:33
  #98 (permalink)  
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Class b separation is 1.5 miles or 500 ft or visual (simplified). Technically that seems to be seaparation maintained but not well communicated.

Given the likely relative speeds 1 o'clock is almost passing behind without the turn. But it is a bit surprising the turn was initiated that close.
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Old 3rd Apr 2010, 14:39
  #99 (permalink)  
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don't you have "maintain visual seperation'' in europe?
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Old 3rd Apr 2010, 16:24
  #100 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Hong Kong
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I usually tell my students that the safest place in busy airspace is directly over the airport.

As a working air traffic controller, I can only say. Sir, you are dangerous!
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