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Greedy BA pilots want more dosh

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Greedy BA pilots want more dosh

Old 16th Jul 2001, 13:09
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Thanks for your comments, whats_it_doing_now?

By way of clarification, I do not in any way wish to pour insult on BA cadets - without a doubt the vast majority are good guys/gals. I never applied because the scheme did not exist at the time I would have been competing for places. But yes, they are unbelievably lucky because there are huge numbers of other equally high quality wannabees out there for whom the road will be considerably harder. By the sound of things you are now a senior BA pilot, enjoying all the many wonderful priveleges that bestows. And best of luck to you! I am genuinely glad that there are people at the top of the tree doing very well - it is great for them personally and the industry as a whole.

I would be very disappointed to think that you or others who have benefitted from free flying training, the most secure job in the industry and virtually guaranteed promotion to the very top would be anything else other than exceedingly thankful. I am not one of those knocking BA - the standards are very high and there is a rigorous selection procedure (which I have never been through). Spare a thought for those other good guys/gals out there who are fantastic at their job but have had to fight every step of the way to get there, because for a variety of reasons were unable to take advantage of such a marvellous scheme as the BA cadet system.

By BA standards £21k is not a lot. I am sure you are aware, however, that there are many turboprop FOs out there getting paid less than that and they are also burdened with massive debt (£30-50k in many cases). They have no guaranteed future - the best they can hope for is to get a crack at one of the larger airlines after they have accumulated suitable hours. Even if they eventually get a look-in at BA, they will be years behind in the seniority list and still have big debts to pay off.

So there you have it. Please do not take this as any attack on BA cadets - they are undoubtedly good people. There are, however, lots of other equally good people who were just not that lucky. Spare a thought for them and the hard road they are travelling on. BA cadets are the most priveleged of all aviators in the country, and I hope they will never lose sight of just how fortunate they have been.
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 13:47
  #42 (permalink)  
Lee Dingedge
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eezypilot - What is the point behind your posting? LTN man was reorting a newspaper article.
 
Old 16th Jul 2001, 15:02
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Ear2ground, you said in response to the Guvnor

"As 'hands-on groundstaff' I find your 'part of a team' comments laudable and agree to most of your points, however I realise that the only groups that can really cause major problems are both Flight, Cabin Crew and to a lesser extent the Engineers."

Firstly, can I say that the pilots deserve to earn a hell of a lot. I know what sort of training they go through (friends are pilots) and if I'm on a flight I want to make sure the best person possible is at the pointy end in the event of any problems.
Having said that, many people can cause major problems, not least the IT staff. BA had a lot of trouble in March/April and I believe a lot of highly skilled people got the system back running. Without pilots for a while, there are no flights. Without an IT system for the same period, there are not only no flights but no forward bookings, or almost anything else which generates revenue for an airline.
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 15:02
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Question

The worlds airlines have been and are still
gambling on a recession resulting in a
pilot surplus again ....

It isn't happening - even in the US - is
it ..... ?
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 17:04
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ITGuy,

Please read my note again,I didn't say the Crew shouldn't get paid more than Groundstaff, my point was that in general Crew tend to higher awards and benefits throughout the airline industry compared to other groups. I have no axe to grind about that issue, its just the way it is.

As for IT systems and people causing disruption thru malice or just system crashes, I agree with you. I was overseas in March when the BA system crashed, my flight nightstopped and it took many days to get back to normal. The issue then was how could a major airline allow such work to go so badly wrong in the first place?

Yes, there are skilled people in all areas of the airline, from the Flight deck down but Mgmt are more wary of some groups than others.
 
Old 16th Jul 2001, 17:15
  #46 (permalink)  
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ITguy,

Please read my note again, I wasn't saying Flight Crew shouldn't be paid more than Groundstaff, clearly they should. The point I was making was that in general, throughout the airline industry Flight Crew recieve better pay awards and benefits than groundstaff. A mate of mine flies and admits it himself and I have no axe to grind at all, I was just stating a widely held view.

As for IT staff/systems being able to cause chaos, I agree completely. The BA system crash last March proved that case easily. However, the question should be asked how can a major airline allow such a disaster to happen in the first place. I was overseas during the crash and the passengers and staff alike were aghast that BA could inflict such a public owngoal.
 
Old 16th Jul 2001, 17:27
  #47 (permalink)  
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TwoTun, mate, for someone who has been flying since 1973 you seem to have a remarkably poor grasp of simple mathematics and English!

We're talking productivity (ie utilisation of assets) here. The likes of WN and FR manage to turn their aircraft around in between one third and half the time of majors using the same types. This means that the aircraft (and crews) spend less time on the ground where they cost money and more time in the air where they're earning money.

Of course, this only applies to short-haul - long haul is unaffected by this as CAP370 and its equivalents would apply (ie you couldn't do a round trip LHR-JFK with a subsonic aircraft no matter how fast you turned the aircraft round).

What do you spend the majority of your time on the flight deck doing, if it isn't monitoring systems?

Hogwash - I think I've said it about three times already and I'll say it again for your benefit.

My arguments here are not about pay levels for pilots. I agree that pilots should be well paid. What I am saying, though, is that pilots should not assume that they should be given higher pay increases than the rest of their colleagues because of their job. It's a team effort and the slogan of the Three Musketeers should apply here - "All for one and one for all!"

Oh, and Hogwash? If you think that the restictions placed on flight crew where if you fail your medical, base or sim checks etc are onerous, then think about this: air traffic controllers are allowed three mistakes (aka 'deals') in their career. Furthermore, if you fail your medical, base or sim check then you're unfit to be at the controls of an aircraft carrying farepaying passengers - would you be comfortable with your family flying with someone that had failed their medical/sim/base check?

ITGuy - quite right ... especially when airlines are increasingly dependent on technology. I flew up to ATL from FLL on Saturday, and DL's DCS was down systemwide. It brought everything to a grinding halt - the ground staff had to use manual systems for the first time in whenever! BA's similar problem a few months back apparently cost the company over £60 million. That's the value of a used B777!!
 
Old 16th Jul 2001, 18:19
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Guvnor

What are you like? What is the point of posting that question in the CC forum?

As a bearer of doom and gloom for the economy why are you starting an airline at this time?

Its obvious why pilots are asking for more money- its because they are in demand, experienced ones anyway.So Easy paid 25K 'cause they didn't have to! You will find that out when and if you actually start recruiting.

Who else is recruiting...... er just BA, Britannia,Monarch,Air2000,JMC,Virgin,Easy,Ryanair,Go,DHL,Sin gapore,Emirates,Channex,most of the regionals and just about every other airline I can think of!

I don't profess to understand the money side but its clear you're not too hot on the operational aspects.By the way which accident was it that cited Cabin Crew Error as the main cause?
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Old 16th Jul 2001, 18:36
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Govenor

Nobody said anything about being happy with sub-standard people flying, what was said was that a pilots license was on the line on those checks.

I am very aware of the ATC 'deals' and I think that controlers should get LOTS of money.

I totally agree with the team concept. If others in the industry believe that they should be paid more, I suggest that, they should apply the matter to their relevant union.
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Old 17th Jul 2001, 08:32
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Hogwash: good points. Many out there simply can't stomach the fact that some airline jet jobs pay very well (only thanks to strong union solidarity, applied through collective bargaining), which in the US are often based on the competition's payscales/benefits, achieved through "pattern bargaining". This concept is followed by US airline mgmts on the other side of the bargaining table, no matter how vigorously they deny it while using the same old "one-trick pony" approach. All they do is trade notes with the competition. There are no real secrets in this business.

Regarding airline pay, just tell anyone who makes typically ignorant remarks about the potentially very good salaries "Sir, Brand X airlines is accepting applications, and is an equal opportunity employer". That usually works. The ball is now in their court.

Hang in there BA pilots!
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Old 17th Jul 2001, 11:32
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Arrow

Might be useful to put some flesh on the arguments. For my most recent days work I was paid £66 (average monthly salary including allowances divided by 30). I flew 465 people on 5 sectors into and out of one of Europes busiest 5 airports in an aircraft with 2 ADD's that affected our operation on each sector. We never stopped on the ground for longer than 35 minutes. Lunch was eaten on my lap during a descent brief, my evening meal eaten whilst I programmed the a/c for our final sector. The only time I left the flight deck was for 3 walk rounds. Total duty time 9 1/2 hours with not one break. This would be illegal if I worked in almost any other job. An average month for me consists of about 50-55 sectors, and around 70 hours flying time. Thats £36 per flight (or about £0.36 per passenger)

I would however be the first to tell you that I have the best job in the world. I love what I do and strive to be as good an operator as I can be. And yes I work for BA (mainline, not franchise).

Overpaid? My 2 closest friends work in middle to senior management positions and both earn more than 2 1/2 times my salary. You tell me.

(edited for spelling)

[ 17 July 2001: Message edited by: 52049er ]
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Old 17th Jul 2001, 14:06
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Why doesn't everybody stop responding to idiotic contributions from people like Guvnor and Bus -something or other-'the pilot's friend!' They are teasers, and responding to such rubbish from wind-up merchants just amuses them and drags out more. When I start seeing them complaining about the excessive amounts of all our savings and investments creamed off by City types (are we all aware of the £44,000 social occasion by 5 or so bankers?), the excessive share options for underperforming airline managers, then I will believe they really want to reduce costs! In the meantime.....IGNORE!
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Old 17th Jul 2001, 14:25
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TWoTun was quite correct when he said:

<<In B.A., some pilots have had to be taken off service because they've reached that 900 hour limit. >>

but did not say what happened next which none of you are going to believe!

The individuals who were removed from their trips had their pay deducted, the reason given being that they had deliberately made themselves unavailable for work!
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Old 17th Jul 2001, 16:01
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Guvnor,

Here's a couple of thoughts for you:

First, we are not interested in what our pay rise is relative to other sections in BA. We don't give a damn whether we get a bigger percentage than cabin crew, loaders or IT staff. What we DO care about is getting paid the market rate for what we do, compared to similar 'flag carriers' ie comparing apples and apples as one of our managers continually says. We are lagging VERY badly and the causes and results of this have already been alluded to. If the cabin crew unions can negotiate a good deal for themselves then good luck to them, but meanwhile we are talking about the pilots' deal and all these extraneous arguments are irrelevant.

Second, the productivity in BA is very high and, fortunately, our union has some excellent data to coroborate this statement. What the company choses to do with the aircraft is up to them and any inneficencies in this regard can be addressed directly to the upper echelons of back-stabbers (sorry I meant BA mangement). We have, as you well know, the flight time limitations placed on us by the CAA and, so long as it is legal, we can basically fly to these limits...there are a few industrial agreements but none of these prevent aircraft being flown at night etc, instead of sitting on the ground. Utilisation of assets is a management task and is NOT an excuse for lack of profits on the part of pilots.

As for being JUST a systems operator, you have absolutely NO idea what being a BA pilot is about and I must reiterate; you don't have a friggin' clue. We are more aware of our part in customer service than any ideas you might have and our previous Director of Flight Ops held our achievments in this arena up to the Board and proved we are worth more than every penny we get. Next time the passengers are all on board and the aircraft goes tech and you personally go row by row through the cabin to address individual concerns, organise a new aircraft and lounge for the passengers because the ground staff had had be taken away on other duties, sort out new flight plans, get transport arranged for the pax, organise your team to prepare the new aircraft to reduce delaying them any further, escort the pax to the lounge and help the 'old dear' up the jetty as they can't get a wheelchair to her soon enough and then, having completed all the related paperwork, get the flight away safely, with minimal delay come and talk to me about systems operators and button pressing. You'd be liable to end up with a VERY sore nose.

Enough.

Pontius.

PS: you've probably been asked this before, but do W and anchor meen anything to you?
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Old 17th Jul 2001, 19:09
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Outstanding yet again Pontius - that'll be the nail being hit on the head then
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Old 17th Jul 2001, 19:40
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Great post Pontius. I don't bother to reply to the resident PPRuNe Tristar Worshipping Airline Tycoon, but I'm glad you did it so well!
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Old 17th Jul 2001, 20:58
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I'd like to make a couple of points if I may in a relax controlled manner.
Firstly, very well put Pontius - you just be careful or there will be no nail left to hit!
Secondly, since people keep drawing parallels between IT and pilots how about this one. When there was a shortage of IT people what did BA do to attract them? Offered them great T & C's The old supply and demand thing.
Thirdly, regarding the Cadet Pilot thing - the quoted start salary is pretty close, if you then deduct the training repayment every month for 5 years and the lower salary compared to a DEP, the 'free' training becomes anything but free, infact you come pretty close to paying the whole cost - about £60,000.
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Old 17th Jul 2001, 21:03
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Thats true largejet, and a little dicky bird told me that BA got the training contract for substantially less than that. Oxford certainly don't seem to be making financial leaps and bounds because of it anyway.
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Old 18th Jul 2001, 01:03
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Sorry Guvnor but no, I don't see where you're coming from at all. You come out with the same rubbish every time and you are fundementally wrong. If I'd wanted to become cabin crew/tug driver or dispatcher I could have saved myself a lot of trouble (and money!).

I suppose that you think a nurse or hospital porter should be entitled to the same remuneration and/or increases as interns (FO equivalent to our industry), consultants (Captains) or surgeons (Sim trainers), just because you can't run a hospital without either or!!!!

It may be that our profession cannot be said to enjoy the same noble standing as those of the medical profession BUT on the other hand their industry is far more forgiving when it comes to making mistakes that cost people lives.

Face it Guv, however much you bleet the inescapable fact of the matter is, that we are a rarer commodity than most other airline staff, and therefore can screw belligerent wannabe managers like you for as much as we like. And God it feels good to see you squirm with helplessness!!!
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Old 18th Jul 2001, 01:48
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It is amazing the way these ignorant people still come out and get so angry when pilots ask for more pay. But I think the main problem is simply that the vast majority of laypeople have no idea what it entails to become a professional air transport pilot.

A huge proportion of pilots end up spending a small fortune over many years to get that valuable license. They have to spend hour after hour up in the air building up their flight time, take exam after exam, then spend a fortune buying a type rating and then finally taking your CV and sending to airline after airline. If you're lucky to be chosen, then it's medicals, nerve wracking sim checks and finally your line check, all in the presence of people who will have no qualms in failing you if you make any kind of mistake.

And if you've had the good fortune to be chosen as a cadet, it's not all that easy either. Written tests, psyche tests, interviews with grumpy line pilots, idiotic group sessions where people have to sit around and build the eiffel tower out of coke cans and then more interviews. Then, when finally sitting in the right seat, they work for low wages while having to pay back some of the training cost. Right through a pilots career it's a constant examination to check whether he/she is still up to the job.

You see it's just not correct to compare flight crew with cabin crew or groundstaff or office clerks etc. All are valuable of course and are vital to the smooth running of the airline, but these other workers did not have to go through the same rigours and training that the plots have. And at the end of the day, when you properly analyse it, the pilots responsibility is huge, taking into your care 10-400 pax is a big deal. Being prepared to deal with inumerable outside factors that can happen on a flight requires thorough training, which takes time and money.

I've always believed that the main problem that the pilot community has encountered when disputes arise, is they just don't put their case forward well enough to the media. And for that the blame must lie with the pilot unions. They have to start getting better PR people to address the media and give their side of the story. If the public could read 52049er's post in the press or hear about in the media they would be alot more sympathetic. For the amount of work he did, £66 is a very low reward considering the amount of money he would have made for his airline that day.

Finally, noone can tell me that BA pilots don't earn their money. I was travelling FCO-LHR last month and the flight was delayed due to ATC. The captain came out and went to his passengers (in the departure lounge!) and explained to them the reasons for the delay. He spoke to all of them, adressing them politely and apologising all the time, even though it wasn't his fault. He left a lasting impression on the passengers that day, how can you value the goodwill he generated? Those passengers would have told their families/friends about the excellent service.

These fliers not only deserve what they're paid but deserve a lot more as well. And that goes for all pilots. I would place no more worth on a BA flier then one with FR or Eazy etc.
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