First Officer flies 13 years without license

[MathFox]

Private jet, the issue is one of competence versus certification; I rather have a competent uncertified pilot in the driver seat than an incompetent certified one. It you're complaining about rounding up logbook entries, you fail to see the forest for the trees. Flight time shows experience, which might breed competence... it is only during a test when one gets to demonstrate one's competence to an (hopefully honest) examiner. I think the airline practice of sim and line checks is more important for safety than the certification system.

BTW, I don't mind when onece in a while a pilot gets convicted for "logbook fraud"; aviation authorities may draw their conclusions from such a conviction too, but what conclusions are fair I would not know: scratching out thousands of proven flight hours, backed by airline files would be unfair.

[Private jet]

Mathfox i agree with you but what i was trying to say is that he cheated someone who had done things honestly out of a job. Are you saying that the authorities should continue to turn a blind eye to this kind of activity purely because, fortunately, they get found out without any incidents occuring where people get injured or lose their lives? Also if a degree of "fiddling" is permisable i.e padding logbook entries right thru to faking licenses where does it end? More and more pilots eager to advance their prospects and careers will fake it more and more. Its human nature i'm afraid. Yes, my example shows that experience is not everything and i'm definately of the thought that with modern aircraft the current training system of using light aircraft to get qualified is woefully out of date (MPL is progress it seems to me) but cheating is cheating whichever way you look at it and thats what needs to be stamped on and stamped on hard or it will be the thin end of the wedge. Many poor sods have worked extremely hard, made personal sacrifices and accumulated vast financial debts to get qualified, but hey just fake your license and bypass that!

[S76Heavy]

If one is prepared to cheat and lie about flying hours, what else is one prepared to lie about? Could be unrecorded safety critical information...

I agree, if found out to have been cheating, one should be disqualified from holding a professional licence for having demonstrated a massive lack of integrity. And one of the characteristics certainly a captain should posess, is integrity. Probably a very oldfashioned view in todays industry..

[White Ghost]

Holograms?

I know that Brazilian Licenses are Credit Card like and come with holograms, Safe and Trusty!

[Avenger]

The whole global checking system is flawed, Disclosure Scotland..out of xxx years ago we had a Chinese cabin attendant, name you could not pronounce, lived in China most of her life but spoke good English. She applied to Disclosure using an "adopted name" in fact her course nick name, for instance "Jenny" Believe it or not she got a disclosure certificate even though "Jenny Fung " did not actually exist.. and she got a full airside pass. She then moved to XXX where Proteus did a full check..yep you guessed it..another pass. In her case she saw nothing wrong with "westernising" herself and was qualified to do the job and properly trained, however, the point is unless they have reason to look deeper they probably wont and where documents are in a strange script they wont translate them but rely on the application form. Companies only tend to dig back in history enough to rubber stamp the applications, allbeit aircrew or cabin crew and rely on the prima facie evidence, which, if " professionally" presented provides little clues to foul play. Of course, for flight crew, a good sim check or knowledge bank just serves to reinforce the story, and it is easy to see how these events occur and even easier to see how difficult they are to stop. Thankfully many authorities now issue letters of authentication for licence holders directly to prospective employers. Fake TRI?, even a genuine TRI can't sign a licence, has to be a TRE, however,if the "fake TRI" did sim sessions as part of a Type Rating course it would not count, summary, the course would have not complied and the rating would not be valid.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

MathFox - I do not agree with your analysis here. I suspect that from what you are written, you are not a professional pilot. That is absolutely fine but most pilots would completely disagree with you. If an individual has obtained 'real' hours by lying and deception, as was the case with the Airtours guy, then he should not be rewarded for doing so. In my judjement he has disqualified himself from future employment as a commercial pilot at any time in the future. The key thing here is that not only must there be punishment of the individual but also warning for others not to do the same thing. There are many thousands of young people who are submitting themselves to the rigours of professional examinations and selection against their peers for the relatively small numbers of jobs available. Someone with, for example, a military fast jet background is much more likely to gain employment than someone without. If that experience turns out to be falsified then the indiviudal has gained a totally unfair advantage. He must not be seen to profit in any way from such deceit. It is no different from employing a surgeon who never really was one, but who actually carried out dozens of appendix removals on the grounds that he actually now has a lot of experience. We simply cannot have such people around our industry to avoid any possible encouragement to others who would contemplate such dishonesty.

[manxcat]

Airtours Guy

In my judjement he has disqualified himself from future employment as a commercial pilot at any time in the future.

NSF,

The scary thing is - he hasn't!

According to the 2008 Daily Mail article,

Now, seven years later, he has taken a job with Scottish airline flyglobespan after properly passing his pilot exams.

it appeared the former bogus pilot had rehabilitated himself, after convincing bosses at the Edinburgh-based airline to employ him.

a flyglobespan insider said: “Professional pilots must possess two character traits – strength of character and integrity.

I am working slowly but surely, spending hard earned money to legitimately obtain my CPL/IR. I've wanted to fly professionally from being a kid but not once has the thought crossed my mind to invent my hours or experience.

As you rightly said, if he pretended to be a doctor then he woudn't get a second chance to make a comeback. Impersonating a medical professional is a serious offence. Why should this not apply to aviation?

[rottenray]

Would Be Defensible If...

... it were a pilot's market for employment instead of an airline's market for employment.

-----

The guy is prolly a good pilot - he would have been weeded out or had a major incident / accident under his belt by now if he weren't...

But with so many good, 100% legit pilots out of work at the moment, I hope they give him a stiff penalty.

He's been occupying a seat which should have been filled with someone who not only wanted to be a pro pilot (as he did) but who had planned his / her life around it and took the significant, costly, sometimes-socially-punitive steps to make his / her career a reality.

Book 'im, Danno!

[Dan Winterland]

''I am working slowly but surely, spending hard earned money to legitimately obtain my CPL/IR. I've wanted to fly professionally from being a kid but not once has the thought crossed my mind to invent my hours or experience.''


Unfortunately manxcat, not everyone has the same integrity as you. This industry is perceived as being romantic and glamourous and although it tends to attract the dreamers and Walter Mitty types which generally are harmless, it also attracts the dishonest and unscrupulous who will do anything to get ahead and try and beat the system. These people are a danger. It's not for no good reason that the system requires high levels of experience and licensing. Someone has already mentioned the character Dudley from Ernest Gann's autoibiography, ''Fate is the Hunter". Dudley go into a position of trust with a forged licence and logbook and eventually ended up killing some of his passengers.

I have only experienced two people with forged hours and in both cases they were sumarily dissmissed on being found out. But I have heard of others and some who even boast of their "P51'' hours - that's Parker 51 and not Mustang. In these cases. I would have no compunction in reporting them. Not only are they licenced beyond their ability, they are untrustworthy and dishonest. If they show such a lack of integrity with something so important, how are they going to behave in other circumstances which they may decide aren't so important as to warrent their full honesty.

As for the fake RAF Pilot, I'm amased he found further employment. I know my company wouldn't take him. What does it say for the airlines that have?

[Global Warrior]

There's also an insurance issue. If you know of someone that has falsified their records and it is later proved that you knew and didnt do anything about it, you are making yourself and your company insurers jointly liable in case that person does have an incident.

GW

[silverstrata]

Mathfox:
Private jet, the issue is one of competence versus certification; I rather have a competent uncertified pilot in the driver seat than an incompetent certified one.

So you would be happy to wake up after an operation, and find out that your surgeon was actually a bricklayer - but that they were 'good with their hands'?

I think you misunderstand why we have ATPL courses and licences that demonstrate we have taken those courses.

[silverstrata]

Sepp:
Disclosure Scotland is a load of tripe. I am in the middle of a (long-running) battle with them. They claim I have provided "false details" about where I've lived.

They are box-tickers, like so much of modern government, with no thought for doing a proper job.

A buddy was knocked back by Scotland because he had a gap in his record - walkabout in Oz. They would not accept that he had no address for this period - so he invented one - a photoshoped hotel record.

He knew it was a lie, Scotland knew it was a lie, but Scotland was now happy, a box had been ticked.

[Coopz67]

Perhaps

......He just had enough of being refered to as SLF instead of a customer who pays your wages or maybe an irritating geek who flies online for a virtual airline, who "knows nothing about real flying".

I say job well done for putting some really odious "special" people on this site in their place for proving it ain't that special.
Insulting remarks on a thread here coming soon.
Off now to fly my computer...Hang on don't they fly planes nowadays.....Oh!

[MathFox]

silverstrata:

MathFox:
Private jet, the issue is one of competence versus certification; I rather have a competent uncertified pilot in the driver seat than an incompetent certified one.

So you would be happy to wake up after an operation, and find out that your surgeon was actually a bricklayer - but that they were 'good with their hands'?

In this case it appeared that the "photographer" held a CPL once and got several months of type training... Would compare to a bricklayer that passed most of the exams in medical school.

[Tediek]

He got released from detention yesterday awaiting his trial...

[Enzo 391]

Sorry MathFox the "photographer" had only a PPL+IR that had expired years ago.He was also wanted by the police but they did not "find" him as he was hiding in Corendon protected by the DFO.He was flying around with new FO:s that were buying flight hours on the Boeing 737 from the company and now i think that this FO:s can log it as PIC hours.
Who employed him in the first place and who checked his references?
I think he is more dangerous than a bricklayer and now that he is out again he might go to Africa for a new contract.He have done that before!

[paulomarko]

incompetent doctor practising with forged licence

It happens in othe professions too! Read this link about a doctor in New Zealand : Doctor desperate when he forged certificate - Yahoo!Xtra News

There are bogus dentists, engineers, lawyers, psychiatrists..........the list goes on. What is amazing are the lack of due diligence by employers and regulators in not spotting these people sooner!

[mr Q]

REMORSE

Reports say the man was relieved his long deception was uncovered and tore off his pilot's stripes in the cockpit

.
BBC report

[maxred]

UK today

Following on the DS thread, it may have changed, but until very recently,if a person gave their employer a false NI number, the employer paid against that, and the NI computer 'created' a new reference - i.e. no tie up to the person who was actually employed. Benefit cheats used this for many years. The whole system was totally chaotic. Secondly with the influx of Europeans, all they require to do in the UK is arrive, visit our Benefit agency, get an 'employers address', this allows a new NI identity, bank account, and armed with all that, presto, a new UK life. Is it any wonder that individuals, with a modicom of common sense, be what they want to be. Evidently this 'pilot' managed to co-erse countless agencies and people. The tick box scenario.

[Bill G Kerr]

Maybe Peter Burkill should be reading this thread .....