KLM 737 @t EHAM & Aeroflot 737 @ ENGM taxiway take-off
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The facts are:
1. KLM is a world class airline!
2. The Dutch generally give the impression of over confidence!
And
1. Like any airline they strive to limit human error.
2. Checking the over confidence will help to limit human error.
1. KLM is a world class airline!
2. The Dutch generally give the impression of over confidence!
And
1. Like any airline they strive to limit human error.
2. Checking the over confidence will help to limit human error.
Last edited by 68+iou1; 18th Feb 2010 at 13:02.
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It's amazing how this thread looks differently on different boards. On Dutch boards the general discussion is KLM sucks and the way they hire people sucks. Then once in a while somebody talks about the incident and two posts later they're talking about how much KLM sucks again.
On this board the Dutch suck and now and again you might read somebody's opinion or thoughts on the incident.
How difficult is it to remain on topic and not include opinions which don't have anything to do with this incident whatsoever?
On this board the Dutch suck and now and again you might read somebody's opinion or thoughts on the incident.
How difficult is it to remain on topic and not include opinions which don't have anything to do with this incident whatsoever?
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I'm Dutch. I trained at Eelde. Not at the KLM school. These KLM trainees hardly ever acknowledged other trainees, didn't bother to greet and once they wore their uniform became outright arrogant. Not all, but certainly 9 out of 10.
About the incident. I can't understand this. Making such a failure at your base under good conditions. It's not rocket science to distinguish a taxiway from the runway. Unless they avoided a catastrophy, they should be fired. A captain at KLM flying 737 has more than 10 years experience flying from Schiphol.
The VNV's initial reaction is wrong. But they're just covering their colleauges a**es.
About the incident. I can't understand this. Making such a failure at your base under good conditions. It's not rocket science to distinguish a taxiway from the runway. Unless they avoided a catastrophy, they should be fired. A captain at KLM flying 737 has more than 10 years experience flying from Schiphol.
The VNV's initial reaction is wrong. But they're just covering their colleauges a**es.
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Flying Torquewrench
Your were 50% Correct
Tenerife is very relevant as it’s the same airline (sadly this incident was a long time after and it seems lessons were not fully learnt by said airline).
TFN: Take off from runway WITHOUT t/o clearance. Fact!
AMS: Take off from taxiway WITHOUT t/o clearance , WITHOUT performance data etc
In both instances putting the aircraft, crew and its passengers, along with all other aircraft, crew and passengers that were moving under their own power at the time of the take off at risk– FACT
Thankfully the AMS take off was an incident and nothing more. Sadly that was by pure luck and not judgement of the crew concerned.
Your were 50% Correct
Tenerife is very relevant as it’s the same airline (sadly this incident was a long time after and it seems lessons were not fully learnt by said airline).
TFN: Take off from runway WITHOUT t/o clearance. Fact!
AMS: Take off from taxiway WITHOUT t/o clearance , WITHOUT performance data etc
In both instances putting the aircraft, crew and its passengers, along with all other aircraft, crew and passengers that were moving under their own power at the time of the take off at risk– FACT
Thankfully the AMS take off was an incident and nothing more. Sadly that was by pure luck and not judgement of the crew concerned.
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I'm Dutch. I trained at Eelde. Not at the KLM school. These KLM trainees hardly ever acknowledged other trainees, didn't bother to greet and once they wore their uniform became outright arrogant. Not all, but certainly 9 out of 10.
That must make you a better pilot.
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Dutch arrogant
Arrogance has nothing, I repeat nothing, to do with a crew using a taxiway for Take off.
Was is relevant is authority gradient (i.e. Tenerife), cockpit procedures, ATC and downright leadership of the Captain.
ATC Amsterdam airport has created a qualifying airport for some carriers. Not taxiway layout, but loose and weird ATC procedures and annoying reprimand of (mostly) foreign Captains. Not forgetting the dozen or so aerodrome procedural pages it has created (ridiculous for an airport without obstacles and/or extreme air-traffic volumes).
Cockpit procedures are Boeing. The question is wether cockpit procedures were adhered to.
Leadership on the flight deck. Now, arrogant or not, former civilan flight school trained pilots lack a broad view of aviation, but were taught KLM culture and procedures from the start. KLM culture always has been: as long as the calls and procedures were performed correctly everything is OK, no matter what the outcome of the flight. You can see a disaster in the making. No blame to narrowly trained so-called professional KLM pilots, it's beyond their scope of what aviation is. It's the system stupid! That creates this kind of pilots. They have heard day-in-day-out during their initial flight training that they are the best of the crop, the best pilots in the world, aces, no less. That is where their arrogance comes from. And it is this attitude and the underlying training that is absolutely relevant in this near-disaster. Go figure two self-proclaimed aces on any flight deck with a lack of self criticism..... That is where leadership comes in.
Then one remark about on fatigue. KLM pilots have the best contract in the world. Netherlands taxes are so high that almost no self respecting KLM pilot is working a normal 100% contract because most earned euro's are so heavily taxed that a full job hardly worthwhile. So they take a parttime contract option of 50-80% making the suggestion of fatigue ridiculous.
Let's wait and see what the Netherlands District Attorney will raise to prosecute the pilot(s). Investigation by a objective truth finding board is not possible under Dutch Law. Thanks to too little effort of Netherlands pilot union VNV to change this.
SM
Was is relevant is authority gradient (i.e. Tenerife), cockpit procedures, ATC and downright leadership of the Captain.
ATC Amsterdam airport has created a qualifying airport for some carriers. Not taxiway layout, but loose and weird ATC procedures and annoying reprimand of (mostly) foreign Captains. Not forgetting the dozen or so aerodrome procedural pages it has created (ridiculous for an airport without obstacles and/or extreme air-traffic volumes).
Cockpit procedures are Boeing. The question is wether cockpit procedures were adhered to.
Leadership on the flight deck. Now, arrogant or not, former civilan flight school trained pilots lack a broad view of aviation, but were taught KLM culture and procedures from the start. KLM culture always has been: as long as the calls and procedures were performed correctly everything is OK, no matter what the outcome of the flight. You can see a disaster in the making. No blame to narrowly trained so-called professional KLM pilots, it's beyond their scope of what aviation is. It's the system stupid! That creates this kind of pilots. They have heard day-in-day-out during their initial flight training that they are the best of the crop, the best pilots in the world, aces, no less. That is where their arrogance comes from. And it is this attitude and the underlying training that is absolutely relevant in this near-disaster. Go figure two self-proclaimed aces on any flight deck with a lack of self criticism..... That is where leadership comes in.
Then one remark about on fatigue. KLM pilots have the best contract in the world. Netherlands taxes are so high that almost no self respecting KLM pilot is working a normal 100% contract because most earned euro's are so heavily taxed that a full job hardly worthwhile. So they take a parttime contract option of 50-80% making the suggestion of fatigue ridiculous.
Let's wait and see what the Netherlands District Attorney will raise to prosecute the pilot(s). Investigation by a objective truth finding board is not possible under Dutch Law. Thanks to too little effort of Netherlands pilot union VNV to change this.
SM
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Well Steve, a lot of bold statements about KLM pilots. I suppose you know them all intimately? Moreover your statements about KLM safety culture and procedures are not at all accurate.
Thanks to all the hard work of VNV.
You must have missed al the efforts that are put in the Transavia tailstrike incident then. All the way to the High Court. Perhaps you also missed VNV`s efforts within ECA and IFALPA on the issue of CLOP (criminal liability of pilots)?
You are sadly misinformed.
KLM pilots have the best contract in the world.
Thanks to too little effort of Netherlands pilot union VNV to change this.
You are sadly misinformed.
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VNV
The only thing I am going to state about Dutch ALPA is that yes, KLM pilots have the best contract of the world, bravo! and yes, all effort of Dutch ALPA has been fruitless in that there's still nothing that precludes a race for cockpit and voice data between the so called independent safety board and the DA office. Usually DA wins that (legal) race.
Cheers,
SM
Cheers,
SM
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What a nonsensical discussion based on conjecture and speculation. No one on this forum knows any details beyond the fact that it happened.
All the people who have a chip on their shoulder because for some reason they got snubbed by KLM and will grab anything to bash away, please be honest in this. For some reason everyone thinks all KLM pilots come from a single source. This is absolutely not the case. Especially in the captain group there are substantial numbers of “free” market pilots, literally from all corners of the world (how many European flag carriers can say this? Or in the case of KLM former flag carrier).
Tenerife has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING in this incident. Referring to it shows an astounding degree of ignorance. KLM’s culture went through a major change after this great tragedy. Of the handful of pilots left from those days all were new hires at that time.
Let’s give the investigation a chance, and then we can pick this discussion up again.
All this negativity is so counterproductive for the individuals concerned, and comes across as worthy of pity.
Within KLM this is being taken as seriously as is possible.
All the people who have a chip on their shoulder because for some reason they got snubbed by KLM and will grab anything to bash away, please be honest in this. For some reason everyone thinks all KLM pilots come from a single source. This is absolutely not the case. Especially in the captain group there are substantial numbers of “free” market pilots, literally from all corners of the world (how many European flag carriers can say this? Or in the case of KLM former flag carrier).
Tenerife has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING in this incident. Referring to it shows an astounding degree of ignorance. KLM’s culture went through a major change after this great tragedy. Of the handful of pilots left from those days all were new hires at that time.
Let’s give the investigation a chance, and then we can pick this discussion up again.
All this negativity is so counterproductive for the individuals concerned, and comes across as worthy of pity.
Within KLM this is being taken as seriously as is possible.
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Steve apparently has some axe to grind with KLM...
unfortunately he is not well informed at all...
bad experiences in the past? Didnt make it through the selection? wanna talk about it?
now back on topic
unfortunately he is not well informed at all...
bad experiences in the past? Didnt make it through the selection? wanna talk about it?
now back on topic
Funny how it always turns out that when you criticize KLM, you are right away being marked as a disgruntled KLM-wannabee. How's that for arrogance?
Furthermore, Otterman, with your statement you just confirmed you have no idea what is going on around you outside of Holland.
Up to this day, Dutch are being hired all over the world, whereas KLM didn't return the favor to foreigners since many years now. Except perhaps the odd few.
How about British Airways, Air France, Lufthansa, Swissair/Crossair, Luxair to name a few? 
Keep it real guys.
Furthermore, Otterman, with your statement you just confirmed you have no idea what is going on around you outside of Holland.
Up to this day, Dutch are being hired all over the world, whereas KLM didn't return the favor to foreigners since many years now. Except perhaps the odd few.
how many European flag carriers can say this? Or in the case of KLM former flag carrier
Keep it real guys.
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CVR is not really required, AMS records all radar activity.
What they say isn't too relevant either, snow or not, the taxiway is just a tiny bit narrower than the runway.
You still get binned at KL if you wear white socks during interview???
What they say isn't too relevant either, snow or not, the taxiway is just a tiny bit narrower than the runway.
You still get binned at KL if you wear white socks during interview???
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Please stop the crap
Ray,
Thanks for backing me up there. For some reason everybody involved with KLM is overreacting every single time you think of posting even the mlldest of criticism. Is it because they know it's true?
Clearly this Otterman fellow has absolutely no idea what is going on in aviation. Furthermore those few 'free market' pilots certainly have had a really hard career working with so much ignorance in the left seat when they were hired. Thinking that a pilot that joins KLM with 150 real flight hours has the same standard, let alone better, than a 'free market' pilot with 6.000 is rubbish of course. But, for the record, the word according former civil flight school blokes, still is that KLM flight ops went down hill after KLM allowed those so called free market pilots in. Who said there's no arrogance there?
What this has to do with taking off from a taxiway?
Well, just about everything. As I posted above. OVERCONFIDENCE KILLS!
What I really would like to know what other foreign pilots think of Amsterdam airport. It wouldn't surprise me if all those superfluous and unnecessary procedures that AMS ATC comes up with contributed to this accident. What about the long list of NOTAMS for the airport? And the subtile changes in the printed material in 'aerodrome information'?
But in the end it's still the skipper that bears the burden of not taking off without a clearance. For those who say this has nothing to do with Tenerife: you are all wrong. This has everything to do with Tenerife as far as taking off without a clearance. This crew only had a clearance to take off from 36C, not from any other surface on the airport. Period.
Maybe technical, and far too early to state there was too large a authority gradient on the flight deck like 'Tenerife', but the lack of clearance is essential.
Cheers,
SM
Thanks for backing me up there. For some reason everybody involved with KLM is overreacting every single time you think of posting even the mlldest of criticism. Is it because they know it's true?
Clearly this Otterman fellow has absolutely no idea what is going on in aviation. Furthermore those few 'free market' pilots certainly have had a really hard career working with so much ignorance in the left seat when they were hired. Thinking that a pilot that joins KLM with 150 real flight hours has the same standard, let alone better, than a 'free market' pilot with 6.000 is rubbish of course. But, for the record, the word according former civil flight school blokes, still is that KLM flight ops went down hill after KLM allowed those so called free market pilots in. Who said there's no arrogance there?
What this has to do with taking off from a taxiway?
Well, just about everything. As I posted above. OVERCONFIDENCE KILLS!
What I really would like to know what other foreign pilots think of Amsterdam airport. It wouldn't surprise me if all those superfluous and unnecessary procedures that AMS ATC comes up with contributed to this accident. What about the long list of NOTAMS for the airport? And the subtile changes in the printed material in 'aerodrome information'?
But in the end it's still the skipper that bears the burden of not taking off without a clearance. For those who say this has nothing to do with Tenerife: you are all wrong. This has everything to do with Tenerife as far as taking off without a clearance. This crew only had a clearance to take off from 36C, not from any other surface on the airport. Period.
Maybe technical, and far too early to state there was too large a authority gradient on the flight deck like 'Tenerife', but the lack of clearance is essential.
Cheers,
SM
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Complete nonsense. That way you can call almost anything a clearance violation rendering the term meaningless (mid air collision = clearance violation, flights not cleared to collide...)
They probably were cleared for 36C that is NOT the essential point here.
The point is that they have MISTAKEN the taxiway for the runway and the interesting question is why?
I don't think they were expecting clearance to take off from the taxiway!
They probably were cleared for 36C that is NOT the essential point here.
The point is that they have MISTAKEN the taxiway for the runway and the interesting question is why?
I don't think they were expecting clearance to take off from the taxiway!
Last edited by StuntPilot; 18th Feb 2010 at 20:47.
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Tenerife is completely irrelevant to this incident.
TFN: Take off from runway WITHOUT t/o clearance. Fact!
AMS: Take off from taxiway WITH t/o clearance (albeit from runway and not taxiway). Fact!
Now tell me were are the similarities???
TFN: Take off from runway WITHOUT t/o clearance. Fact!
AMS: Take off from taxiway WITH t/o clearance (albeit from runway and not taxiway). Fact!
Now tell me were are the similarities???
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*A lack of situational awareness*
True, but that's again one of these 'cover-it-all' categories.
Any incident with a non-evil pilot in a serviceable plane is in a sense due to a lack of situational awareness since any non-evil pilot would avoid the incident if he would be aware of the situation that is unfolding.
'Cover-it-all' categories do not relate things.
It is fascinating that people are apparently unable to consider this incident without an enormous amount of cultural, national and other generally subjective clutter.
True, but that's again one of these 'cover-it-all' categories.
Any incident with a non-evil pilot in a serviceable plane is in a sense due to a lack of situational awareness since any non-evil pilot would avoid the incident if he would be aware of the situation that is unfolding.
'Cover-it-all' categories do not relate things.
It is fascinating that people are apparently unable to consider this incident without an enormous amount of cultural, national and other generally subjective clutter.
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People cannot 'consider this incident without an enormous amount of cultural, national or other generally subjective clutter' because that could well be the cause of the problem and therefore should be openly discussed.
Lets see what comes back from the inquiry.
Lets see what comes back from the inquiry.