KLM 737 @t EHAM & Aeroflot 737 @ ENGM taxiway take-off
Our Dutch Instructors at CAE Amsterdam specifically referred to Dutch arrogance as a CRM issue which could cause problems in the cockpit. Mind you, at the same time the Brits got criticised for being too polite and longwinded... 
Not quite sure how that point fits in with a KLM crew mistaking a taxyway for a runway...
Not quite sure how that point fits in with a KLM crew mistaking a taxyway for a runway...
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I feel for those guys at the front I am sure it was just a mistake that they thought was 'not posshible' for them to make.
I am sure that this is not the first time KLM crews have made a mistake on a runway, thankfully no one was hurt...
I am sure that this is not the first time KLM crews have made a mistake on a runway, thankfully no one was hurt...
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As long as human beings are involved in anything, mistakes will be made.
Instead of jumping down each others throat why can't we just try to learn from this incident?
The nationality of the crew has nothing to do with the incident. It's the outcome of the investigation which is important so that we can avoid these incidents.
Instead of jumping down each others throat why can't we just try to learn from this incident?
The nationality of the crew has nothing to do with the incident. It's the outcome of the investigation which is important so that we can avoid these incidents.
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All this business about Dutch arrogance or attitude is complete and utter drivel. The same would be said about BA, Lufty or almost any other major airline.
As Piltdown Man said earlier one day we will find out what happened for these guys to believe they were on a runway. This will be a fascinating read.
What is so intriguing about this incident is that these guys had been flying for a number of years, like most of us. They had been regularly and successfully going through sim checks and line checks, and yet, they were able to make such a basic mistake. KLM does not employ idiots, whatever some may appear to think. And yet it did happen to them.
As far as I am concerned what is to be learned from this is that, potentially, anyone is capable of a major cock-up, especially if you think it could never happen to you.
As Piltdown Man said earlier one day we will find out what happened for these guys to believe they were on a runway. This will be a fascinating read.
What is so intriguing about this incident is that these guys had been flying for a number of years, like most of us. They had been regularly and successfully going through sim checks and line checks, and yet, they were able to make such a basic mistake. KLM does not employ idiots, whatever some may appear to think. And yet it did happen to them.
As far as I am concerned what is to be learned from this is that, potentially, anyone is capable of a major cock-up, especially if you think it could never happen to you.
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Wise words ACCP !
As far as I am concerned what is to be learned from this is that, potentially, anyone is capable of a major cock-up, especially if you think it could never happen to you.
Very true indeed!
Good Flying!
John
Very true indeed!
Good Flying!
John
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If this would have happened to a smaller carrier the talking for example here in this forum would be quite different now. That is actually very serious incident.. Same people flying only companies and airplanes vary..
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"read rwy designator......."
never ever done an intersection departure.....
only ever gone to full length
It's their home base ffs.
Never mind the how they did it. It's the WHY that's important.
Gross error check on heading on line up wouldn't have caught this one.
Beam bar centered (or not in this case) if the ils for 36c was radiating and selected might have.
The only certainty is that they didn't taxi out with the intention of screwing up. Just like every one of us.
never ever done an intersection departure.....
only ever gone to full length
It's their home base ffs.
Never mind the how they did it. It's the WHY that's important.
Gross error check on heading on line up wouldn't have caught this one.
Beam bar centered (or not in this case) if the ils for 36c was radiating and selected might have.
The only certainty is that they didn't taxi out with the intention of screwing up. Just like every one of us.
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Just realised that I operated from AMS in the same wave as this KLM 737 and that I operated from LUX on the same day as the Cargolux 747 hit a van on the runway in Jan.
If anyone wants to know my roster so they can arrange to be somewhere else, let me know...
I'm also quite prepared to stay at home for an appropriate consideration
If anyone wants to know my roster so they can arrange to be somewhere else, let me know...
I'm also quite prepared to stay at home for an appropriate consideration
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I seem to remember that KLM's finest managed the world's biggest aviation disaster by taking off from an occupied runway at Teneriffe Norte?
Either back up your statement or don't bother posting.
Flying Torquewrench:
Sorry old son; it just had to be mentioned (for those of you who are only just starting your career).
It is very sadly a historical fact.
I will keep you very happy and not post again on this thread.
What do us old pharts know anyway?
Sorry old son; it just had to be mentioned (for those of you who are only just starting your career).
It is very sadly a historical fact.
I will keep you very happy and not post again on this thread.
What do us old pharts know anyway?
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Flying Torquewrench: I think the point that JW411 is making is that KLM seem to have a history of this type of incident...
Mind you with the attitude that seems to be a feature of a KLM flightdeck, as discussed by many others on this thread, (and from my experience I am afraid I have to agree with the comments posted) they will continue to have such incidents until they learn better.
Mind you with the attitude that seems to be a feature of a KLM flightdeck, as discussed by many others on this thread, (and from my experience I am afraid I have to agree with the comments posted) they will continue to have such incidents until they learn better.
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All crew at all airliners in the world make mistakes. The important thing is to learn from them. Lets hope that the authorities decide to learn from this incident instead of just punishing the crew (seems to be happening more and more).
Here are some other mistakes from other airliners;
SAS: Report: SAS B736 at Lulea on Feb 27th 2007, took off opposite runway
Pel Air: Report: Pel Air E120 at Sydney on Oct 13th 2007, aligned with edge- instead of centerline for takeoff
Singapore Airlines: ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 747-412 9V-SPK Taipei-Chiang Kai Shek Airport (TPE)
China Airlines: ASN Aircraft accident Airbus A340-313X B-18805 Anchorage International Airport, AK (ANC)
Comair / Delta Connection: ASN Aircraft accident Canadair CRJ100ER (CL-600-2B19) N431CA Lexington-Blue Grass Airport, KY (LEX)
Just shows it could happen to everybody
......... lets use this as a wakeup call.
Safe flying everybody.
Here are some other mistakes from other airliners;
SAS: Report: SAS B736 at Lulea on Feb 27th 2007, took off opposite runway
Pel Air: Report: Pel Air E120 at Sydney on Oct 13th 2007, aligned with edge- instead of centerline for takeoff
Singapore Airlines: ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 747-412 9V-SPK Taipei-Chiang Kai Shek Airport (TPE)
China Airlines: ASN Aircraft accident Airbus A340-313X B-18805 Anchorage International Airport, AK (ANC)
Comair / Delta Connection: ASN Aircraft accident Canadair CRJ100ER (CL-600-2B19) N431CA Lexington-Blue Grass Airport, KY (LEX)
Just shows it could happen to everybody
......... lets use this as a wakeup call.Safe flying everybody.
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Tenerife is completely irrelevant to this incident.
TFN: Take off from runway WITHOUT t/o clearance. Fact!
AMS: Take off from taxiway WITH t/o clearance (albeit from runway and not taxiway). Fact!
Now tell me were are the similarities???
As others have said TFN happened 40 years ago and a lot has changed in the mean time. As for KLM pilots having a chip on the shoulder? Have a look through this website, read about different airlines. There is always a couple who claim that their airline is the best because it has the best pilots in the world!!. So give them a break.
Read the BA thread. Quote; " we have the best T's and C's and therefore have the best pilots in the industry". unquote. Just as an example and nothing towards BA but we all do it.
TFN: Take off from runway WITHOUT t/o clearance. Fact!
AMS: Take off from taxiway WITH t/o clearance (albeit from runway and not taxiway). Fact!
Now tell me were are the similarities???
As others have said TFN happened 40 years ago and a lot has changed in the mean time. As for KLM pilots having a chip on the shoulder? Have a look through this website, read about different airlines. There is always a couple who claim that their airline is the best because it has the best pilots in the world!!. So give them a break.
Read the BA thread. Quote; " we have the best T's and C's and therefore have the best pilots in the industry". unquote. Just as an example and nothing towards BA but we all do it.