KLM 737 @t EHAM & Aeroflot 737 @ ENGM taxiway take-off
Give me a Dutch city (e.g. Maastrict) on a Summer Saturday night over any UK city complete with its fighting yobs and paraletic women!
Maastricht is indeed a wonderful city, but it is in Limburg - which, as far as Limburgers are concerned, is a different country and another way of life altogether. Even they, by the way, also regard the "northerners" as rude and arrogant.
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I don't think screwing up your take off by using a taxiway iso 36C is a particular Dutch thing to do....
What really worries me is the fact that TWO people on the flightdeck missed all relevant markings and runway lights and where able to take off with clearance/ without any intervention from the tower.
Having worked for KLM as an f/a for over 12 years i always felt that the people upfront took there job pretty serious so it really came as a surprise.
What really worries me is the fact that TWO people on the flightdeck missed all relevant markings and runway lights and where able to take off with clearance/ without any intervention from the tower.
Having worked for KLM as an f/a for over 12 years i always felt that the people upfront took there job pretty serious so it really came as a surprise.
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In Ryanair I always had the impression ( & I for sure wasn't the only one ) that many of our "new" Dutch F/O's came across as smart-asses.
I am however , quite prepared to accept that a large part of that could be me being an old fart, and that the equivalent F/O from Eire / UK / Spain/ wherever, could be just as bad, but was merely perhaps just a bit more "tactful" about it.
I believe at least a part of the difference is in the way you cloggies are so direct, it gives the impression " I really know what I am saying here, and it's right".
Indeed , in your own language , you "may" be capable of coming across as humble, in English ? . . . that is more problematical.
A bit like Dutch ATC, they communicate (never mind if they have to correct you
) in a way that makes you feel belittled, they may indeed merely be trying to be helpful, but the way they tell you gives exactly the opposite impression.
For me, you guys have two big problems in English, 1 - because you speak it pretty well, you think you speak it like a native, so you speak too quickly, even for a native speaker, so HE ends up like a dummy saying Huh ?
2 - you speak it too assertively, perhaps as you speak your native language, and you end up coming across as arrogant pr1cks, when in fact probably you are not.
I dunno, the Flemish speaking Belgians don't like you so much, what's their complaint ? ? maybe something along the same lines ? or maybe you are just arrogant ?
Well, there are probably worse national attributes to be landed with 
Ah, nothing like a bit of intra-european dialogue to start the weekend.
Anyway, to get back in the direction of the thread, bugger all to do with nationality or airport, we are all more than capable of cocking up supremely well at any airport regardless of the country of airport or nationality of driver.
No accident, no casualties, hopefully a lesson to be learned for all, sh1t happens !
I am however , quite prepared to accept that a large part of that could be me being an old fart, and that the equivalent F/O from Eire / UK / Spain/ wherever, could be just as bad, but was merely perhaps just a bit more "tactful" about it.
I believe at least a part of the difference is in the way you cloggies are so direct, it gives the impression " I really know what I am saying here, and it's right".
Indeed , in your own language , you "may" be capable of coming across as humble, in English ? . . . that is more problematical.
A bit like Dutch ATC, they communicate (never mind if they have to correct you
) in a way that makes you feel belittled, they may indeed merely be trying to be helpful, but the way they tell you gives exactly the opposite impression.For me, you guys have two big problems in English, 1 - because you speak it pretty well, you think you speak it like a native, so you speak too quickly, even for a native speaker, so HE ends up like a dummy saying Huh ?
2 - you speak it too assertively, perhaps as you speak your native language, and you end up coming across as arrogant pr1cks, when in fact probably you are not.
I dunno, the Flemish speaking Belgians don't like you so much, what's their complaint ? ? maybe something along the same lines ? or maybe you are just arrogant ?
Well, there are probably worse national attributes to be landed with Ah, nothing like a bit of intra-european dialogue to start the weekend.
Anyway, to get back in the direction of the thread, bugger all to do with nationality or airport, we are all more than capable of cocking up supremely well at any airport regardless of the country of airport or nationality of driver.
No accident, no casualties, hopefully a lesson to be learned for all, sh1t happens !
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If I was from Maastricht I would probably keep quiet, most Europeans (whatever they are ? 
) don't know if it is in . . . . The Netherlands / Belgium / Luxembourg / Or is it just another EU accepted tax fiddle ( Andorra/Monaco/ Lichenstein/ Luxembourg - AGAIN)
I am told it is a rather lovely city, possibly not the place to spend the weekend as a testosterene surcharged 18 yr old, and no doubt all the better for it
) don't know if it is in . . . . The Netherlands / Belgium / Luxembourg / Or is it just another EU accepted tax fiddle ( Andorra/Monaco/ Lichenstein/ Luxembourg - AGAIN)I am told it is a rather lovely city, possibly not the place to spend the weekend as a testosterene surcharged 18 yr old, and no doubt all the better for it
Given that the weather was "all the 9s" (assume the observation posted by RubyVroom was from around the time of the incident) - how is it possible to mistake a strip with bright yellow lights (with red entry signs 36C-18C) for one with blue/green lights?
Even if the crew were tired this is worrying. Can anyone shed any light? (apologies for the awful pun!)
Even if the crew were tired this is worrying. Can anyone shed any light? (apologies for the awful pun!)
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I agree with you completely, but you know, sometimes at that time of night , you don't give a sh!t and you "could" forget what are the "good" colours and happily launch off enjoying the fact the way was illuminated.
Not so long ago , I lined up on a runway with "No" lights.
My colleague said nothing, well our landing lights were great ( thanks "Mr Boeing", sorry for Turkish reticence) I asked," could you put the lights on please", and the picture was indeed better, but, had I been a little bit more tired ? , it was about midnight, so lets say 0200 ? I don't entirely discount the possibility that I might " just" have performed the take -off with a vague appreciation that" sumfin ain't right" but might have gone none the less.
Even as I queried what I saw, I queried myself. . . we become really transfixed with justifying ourselves nowadays it becomes, actually, quite scary. Our previously unquestioned/ totally justified "command authority" is slowly and subversively , being diluted by so much politically correct totally
irrelevant, crap. THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM, particularly for companies like Ryanair, where these guys are so used to having no authority/deferring to "the boss/i.e the company" for every decision. There is no actual day to day pressure, in fact any decisions you make, are never questioned, the danger arises from the subtle mindset, that the less worldy (i.e. never worked elsewhere ) bods adopt, and take with them to command. Subtle, but really dangerously stifling , really so .
These guys have been castrated before getting the 4 bars, the price for this is & will become more apparent as time goes on.
Wet, limiting tailwind, not so long, possibly slippery when wet R/W , Flap 30 A/B 2 on a B738 anyone ? Why the hell would you as a LTC do this ? indoctrination I would suggest. If not ? well your judgement is shot to hell anyway & you were wrongly promoted.
Me, I blame the system, and I believe that the "rewards" will be reaped in due course
Not at all "pay peanuts get monkey".
Much worse "encourage & reward by promotion compliance, stifle & hinder individual contribution through observation & suggestion, by disregarding & failing to acknowledge"
Not so long ago , I lined up on a runway with "No" lights.
My colleague said nothing, well our landing lights were great ( thanks "Mr Boeing", sorry for Turkish reticence) I asked," could you put the lights on please", and the picture was indeed better, but, had I been a little bit more tired ? , it was about midnight, so lets say 0200 ? I don't entirely discount the possibility that I might " just" have performed the take -off with a vague appreciation that" sumfin ain't right" but might have gone none the less.
Even as I queried what I saw, I queried myself. . . we become really transfixed with justifying ourselves nowadays it becomes, actually, quite scary. Our previously unquestioned/ totally justified "command authority" is slowly and subversively , being diluted by so much politically correct totally
irrelevant, crap. THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM, particularly for companies like Ryanair, where these guys are so used to having no authority/deferring to "the boss/i.e the company" for every decision. There is no actual day to day pressure, in fact any decisions you make, are never questioned, the danger arises from the subtle mindset, that the less worldy (i.e. never worked elsewhere ) bods adopt, and take with them to command. Subtle, but really dangerously stifling , really so .
These guys have been castrated before getting the 4 bars, the price for this is & will become more apparent as time goes on.
Wet, limiting tailwind, not so long, possibly slippery when wet R/W , Flap 30 A/B 2 on a B738 anyone ? Why the hell would you as a LTC do this ? indoctrination I would suggest. If not ? well your judgement is shot to hell anyway & you were wrongly promoted.
Me, I blame the system, and I believe that the "rewards" will be reaped in due course
Not at all "pay peanuts get monkey".
Much worse "encourage & reward by promotion compliance, stifle & hinder individual contribution through observation & suggestion, by disregarding & failing to acknowledge"
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DCAte writes:
On a lighter note: if Delta can land on a taxiway, why can't KLM take off on one?
On a lighter note: if Delta can land on a taxiway, why can't KLM take off on one?
Once all the furor over the actual mistake subsides, we need to think about what economically feasible steps can be taken to keep pilots from landing and taking off from taxiways.
Obviously, a lot can be said about this being a "less than best" situation.
Yard-sale type signs saying "do not take off from this strip of pavement" or something similar..?
Joking a bit with that, but maybe ground signs could improve a bit.
I'm going to posit this thought.
Most of the infrastructure was designed in the lush days before US deregulation and the cropping-up of low-cost carrier operations world-wide, and everything is much more demanding than the "golden days".
Air transit doesn't have that special panache it once did, and I'm sure this is evident to the pilots.
(Anyone even casually involved with commercial air travel is experiencing a severe loss of respect. Southwest, once considered the absolute cattle-car experience, has been racking up favorable customer survey comments, and they haven't changed their business model.)
As an aside, I'm sure it was a rectum-tightening experience in this case, as I'm sure the deck crew realized what was happening shortly after it started to happen.
They DID successfully complete a takeoff, prolly from a surface which isn't as smooth and groomed as a runway. I have no idea what a rougher surface can imply when taking off.
Therefore, one can't assume the PF and the PNF to be completely inept.
So, what can be done?
In this incident, I don't think the A vs. B or any model argument applies. It's a case of workload and infrastructure, and it would be very bad indeed to throw the baby out with the bathwater...
So, put your dreamy hats on and start writing - maybe there will be a few good ideas, and maybe someone can take that upstream a bit.
RR
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This episode is one that needs very close examination to see where the error occurred - and the authorities are treating it with the gravity required. No-one should need reminding, that it would have only needed ONE other aircraft to turn into the taxiway, at the wrong moment, for us to be reading about another major KLM disaster today. I'm with blue heaven, what were ATC doing? - besides adopting a less-than-professional attitude to aircraft control and movement??
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One of the accident experiences that I've been unfortunate enough to be involved in was attributed to an F/O going sick and being replaced at short notice by another Captain. The resultant accident occurred with them both concentrating on the instrument panel and no-one looking out the cockpit window. This had nothing to do with taking off from a taxiway but could offer a possible explanation.
And just to be even handed, I as an ex-ATC would never clear an aircraft for take-off that I hadn't checked either visually or by radar was entering or on the correct runway. So as it was dark, was the SMR working?
There is generally no single explanation for why these things happen but I'm inclined to think there are probably a few holes that have lined up in that Edam. Time for everyone to examine their culture and procedures and take the necessary measures to prevent a re-occurrence.
On the beach
And just to be even handed, I as an ex-ATC would never clear an aircraft for take-off that I hadn't checked either visually or by radar was entering or on the correct runway. So as it was dark, was the SMR working?
There is generally no single explanation for why these things happen but I'm inclined to think there are probably a few holes that have lined up in that Edam. Time for everyone to examine their culture and procedures and take the necessary measures to prevent a re-occurrence.
On the beach
I was recently taxiing to 36L from the cargo area and when querying confusing taxi instructions was given a very curt, condescending response.
In my experience some ATC tends to be pushy rather than slick.
In my experience some ATC tends to be pushy rather than slick.
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Perhaps that 'spiderweb' of taxiway junctions just accross the bridge over the highway, near the entry to runway 36C may have been a factor in the confusion?
Maybe they should redesign it as a roundabout . . . .
Maybe they should redesign it as a roundabout . . . .
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Part of the problem in AMS is the ATC habit of never giving full taxi instructions, they simply tell you to taxi RWY XX and expect you to know your way. Coming across the bridge at Q I still really don't know if I'm supposed to use A or B to W5 (for 36L) or coming from 18R across W5, which taxiway to use towards Q.
I just ask (and was told to do whatever I wanted) or use clockwise on A, counter clockwise on B. That is what is expected in the terminal area, but it is poorly indicated in the RWY 36C/18C area.
If they were coming south towards 36C, shouldn't they be on TWY B anyway?
This could only happen to KLM as all other airlines seem to be forced to use 36L...
I just ask (and was told to do whatever I wanted) or use clockwise on A, counter clockwise on B. That is what is expected in the terminal area, but it is poorly indicated in the RWY 36C/18C area.
If they were coming south towards 36C, shouldn't they be on TWY B anyway?
This could only happen to KLM as all other airlines seem to be forced to use 36L...
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Originally Posted by blue heaven
Do not ATC have some shared responsibility in this incident? What do they mean when they say "cleared for take off"?
But ATC, or some of the systems that are available on the ground these days, could have some way of preventing such an incident - but none are 100% reliable. As with all incidents, there are will be a whole range of factors which contributed here and we will have to wait and see what conclusions are drawn by the investigators (who have access to all the information).
Playstation.
Well said.
As Michael Caine said in 'Goldfinger',
"There's only two things I can't stand: People who are intolerant of other peoples cultures, and the Dutch"
Well said.
As Michael Caine said in 'Goldfinger',
"There's only two things I can't stand: People who are intolerant of other peoples cultures, and the Dutch"
)
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This could only happen to KLM as all other airlines seem to be forced to use 36L...
If their comments about the Turkish accident are a guide, will they be trying to pin this one on Boeing too ?
Maybe Schiphol Airport can get part of the blame because of snow-covered signs, but that's about all I can imagine. (And unclear/improper ATC instructions.)
