ethiopian airlines aircraft down near Beirut
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 265
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Norman writes:
At this stage nobody knows anything. Conjecture is just foolish talk and causes enormous pain to family members looking for answers. PPRuNe is exactly where they come looking for scraps of 'insight'. May I humbly suggest that at this point no one has any insight of any kind.
At this stage nobody knows anything. Conjecture is just foolish talk and causes enormous pain to family members looking for answers. PPRuNe is exactly where they come looking for scraps of 'insight'. May I humbly suggest that at this point no one has any insight of any kind.
(If we did, it would be PPfactN.org)
Suggesting that everyone here remain mute until the investigation is complete defeats the purpose of this forum thread, which has so far been conducted in a rather well-behaved manner.
I'd guess that the next of kin aren't reading this, as they have so much more to attend to.
Pilots frequent these forums, and any discussion they might share is certainly more important than your feelings or mine, as SLF.
As far as causing "enormous pain" to family members, trust me - it's the information vacuum which surrounds these types of accidents which causes that pain, not healthy discussion found in PPrune's forums.
Want to save families grief?
Work with those who report such accidents, and eliminate the chance that any major news org will publish "X" number of survivors before checking facts.
That's what really hurts - hearing "some" survivors turn into "no" survivors on newscasts.
Once you've tackled that, come back and align us into a better state of being - but certainly don't start here before you've fixed everything else.
This is a rumor network, this is a forum for discussion, don't build anything more into it than it should be.
Ref post #68
An early 707 was hit by lightning over Maryland ( I think ? ) which ignited fuel - or vapour if you want to be pedantic - in a vent area near the wingtip. Later modified.
An early 707 was hit by lightning over Maryland ( I think ? ) which ignited fuel - or vapour if you want to be pedantic - in a vent area near the wingtip. Later modified.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Denmark
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking at the video, I believe too it is strobelights. However it could also be an engine surge as well - but that should not bring a 737 down. The final flash looks to me like an other lightning - like comming from the depature direction.
Overall the video until now gives more gueses than facts.
If there had been any fire I would have expected some burning fuel at the surface, but until now there has been no evidence of a fire - unless I missed somthing???
Walder
Overall the video until now gives more gueses than facts.
If there had been any fire I would have expected some burning fuel at the surface, but until now there has been no evidence of a fire - unless I missed somthing???
Walder
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: africa
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Both black boxes from KQ 507 were retrieved. Cameroon government is to release the report but they are sitting on it as ATC allowed two other airliners Air France and Virgin Nigeria to takeoff without getting a confirmation report of KQ507 location. Remember the airspace was non radar. These black boxes should be easy to find.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd guess that the next of kin aren't reading this, as they have so much more to attend to.
There are several examples of crashes where the next of kin not just stumbled upon this little website of ours, but actually participated in the discussion as well.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Bahrain
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To put it back in perspective a bit:
The pilot of the aircraft which crashed off the coast of Lebanon failed to follow instructions to avoid a severe storm, according to the country's defence minister.
<irrelevant background deleted>
Defence minister Elias Murr said the plane failed to follow instructions from Beirut air traffic controllers, for reasons that were not immediately clear.
"A command tower recording shows the tower told the pilot to turn to avoid the storm, but the plane went in the opposite direction," he said.
"We do not know what happened or whether it was beyond the pilot's control."
<irrelevant background deleted>
Defence minister Elias Murr said the plane failed to follow instructions from Beirut air traffic controllers, for reasons that were not immediately clear.
"A command tower recording shows the tower told the pilot to turn to avoid the storm, but the plane went in the opposite direction," he said.
"We do not know what happened or whether it was beyond the pilot's control."
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Bedford
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With the Air France accident last year and now this accident with bad weather as a factor is it time all airlines reviewed their Standard Operating Procedures with regard to flight in and around thunderstorms ? Is too much faith in autopilots and weather radars,commercial pressure to fly hindering decision making when thunderstorms are forecast ?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Between FL280 and FL410
Age: 56
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even if I would add up an extra triptime of 15 minutes , with a small note 'WX avoidance' , there would not be a single word from my employer !
So commercial pressure / WX etc , I don't know , but not in many company's !!
So commercial pressure / WX etc , I don't know , but not in many company's !!
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Europe
Posts: 341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From GulfNews:
Maybe vertigo induced by a non-instrument turn in dark, no-horizon night in order to avoid breaching Israeli airspace following weather avoidance?
Just a thought...
Lebanon minister: pilot in crash flew opposite wayTransportation Minister Ghazi Aridi told The Associated Press on Tuesday that the tower "asked him to correct, but then he did a very fast and strange turn."
Lebanese Red Cross workers move a body retrieved from the sea after an Ethiopian Airlines plane crashed in the Mediterranean on Monday.
Beirut: Lebanon's transportation minister says the pilot of an Ethiopian Airlines jet did not fly in the direction recommended by the Beirut control tower before the fatal crash. Transportation Minister Ghazi Aridi told The Associated Press on Tuesday that the tower "asked him to correct, but then he did a very fast and strange turn." He says it's not clear why that happened or whether it was beyond the pilot's control. Like most other airliners, the Boeing 737 also is equipped with its own onboard weather radar which the pilot may have used to avoid flying into the storm cells.
No survivors had been found more than 24 hours after the crash. Searchers are trying to find the plane's black box and flight data recorder.
Lebanese Red Cross workers move a body retrieved from the sea after an Ethiopian Airlines plane crashed in the Mediterranean on Monday.
Beirut: Lebanon's transportation minister says the pilot of an Ethiopian Airlines jet did not fly in the direction recommended by the Beirut control tower before the fatal crash. Transportation Minister Ghazi Aridi told The Associated Press on Tuesday that the tower "asked him to correct, but then he did a very fast and strange turn." He says it's not clear why that happened or whether it was beyond the pilot's control. Like most other airliners, the Boeing 737 also is equipped with its own onboard weather radar which the pilot may have used to avoid flying into the storm cells.
No survivors had been found more than 24 hours after the crash. Searchers are trying to find the plane's black box and flight data recorder.
Maybe vertigo induced by a non-instrument turn in dark, no-horizon night in order to avoid breaching Israeli airspace following weather avoidance?
Just a thought...
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: london
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
quote..
But taking off from Beirut in bad weather has always been an unsettling experience. The location of the airport, just south of the city, means that outbound airliners must fly out to sea immediately after leaving the ground. If they continued south, they would quickly be heading for the Israeli frontier. The usual take-off runway forces pilots to bank heavily to starboard and passengers can sea the ocean immediately below the right wing of the plane. In bad weather – and I write as a veteran Beirut airline passenger – the sight of massive waves and sea-spray under the starboard wing-tip is usually a little terrifying. It normally takes more than 10 minutes to rise above the turbulence and flight ET409 exploded when it was still in cloud, just five minutes after leaving the ground. Beirut has a first-class record in on-time takeoffs; the question must be asked if controllers allowed this to overcome any doubts about the weather. But planes had been taking off into the same storm and lightning for more than 12 hours before the disaster....
... The last crash at Beirut airport was more than 20 years ago when a Polish freight aircraft crashed in the hills to the south-east.
from Robert Fisk, The Independent
An explosion in the sky – and Beirut's worst fears came true - Middle East, World - The Independent
But taking off from Beirut in bad weather has always been an unsettling experience. The location of the airport, just south of the city, means that outbound airliners must fly out to sea immediately after leaving the ground. If they continued south, they would quickly be heading for the Israeli frontier. The usual take-off runway forces pilots to bank heavily to starboard and passengers can sea the ocean immediately below the right wing of the plane. In bad weather – and I write as a veteran Beirut airline passenger – the sight of massive waves and sea-spray under the starboard wing-tip is usually a little terrifying. It normally takes more than 10 minutes to rise above the turbulence and flight ET409 exploded when it was still in cloud, just five minutes after leaving the ground. Beirut has a first-class record in on-time takeoffs; the question must be asked if controllers allowed this to overcome any doubts about the weather. But planes had been taking off into the same storm and lightning for more than 12 hours before the disaster....
... The last crash at Beirut airport was more than 20 years ago when a Polish freight aircraft crashed in the hills to the south-east.
from Robert Fisk, The Independent
An explosion in the sky – and Beirut's worst fears came true - Middle East, World - The Independent
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: DXB
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If they continued south, they would quickly be heading for the Israeli frontier.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: CheekyTown
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know Fisks column is not an official line but he clearly reports 34 bodies as being found. You would assume that bearing in mind the alledged timeframe of the incident and the poor weather , that most passengers would still be buckled into their seats when whatever befell them took place.
Were this to be a CFIW incident then , once again assuming , most bodies would still sadly be in the wreckage.
The fact that the Lebanese authorities may have found remains of over 1/3 of the passengers and crew on the waters surface makes me question whether an in-flight break-up or explosion did actually take place.
Were this to be a CFIW incident then , once again assuming , most bodies would still sadly be in the wreckage.
The fact that the Lebanese authorities may have found remains of over 1/3 of the passengers and crew on the waters surface makes me question whether an in-flight break-up or explosion did actually take place.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<Beirut has a first-class record in on-time takeoffs; the question must be asked if controllers allowed this to overcome any doubts about the weather.>>
Not wholly sure what the writer meant, but it's the pilot who decides whether to take-off, not ATC. ATC can only issue a clearance based on traffic and one or two other factors. The weather at the time is not (usually) a consideration. I've seen many pilots refuse take-off into storms whilst others did.
Not wholly sure what the writer meant, but it's the pilot who decides whether to take-off, not ATC. ATC can only issue a clearance based on traffic and one or two other factors. The weather at the time is not (usually) a consideration. I've seen many pilots refuse take-off into storms whilst others did.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: btw SAMAR and TOSPA
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but then he did a very fast and strange turn."
Flash 604
Kenya 507 http://www.pprune.org/african-aviati...a-507-a-2.html see last entry
Gulf 072
Armavia 967
YouTube - Flash Airlines Accident Animation
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: In the torpedo tube above!
Posts: 212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Saw the video.Seems to me like an engine surge,followed by another engine surge. Both of these could be due multiple bird bits(very common in rainy conditions and all the more dangerous since the pilot can never see them right untill the moment it is too late!). The bright explosive flash seen later on the video could well be either one of the damaged engines' blades disintegrating and either rupturing a fuel line or piercing a fuel tank(therby causing the explosion and the flash). The rest can be a little less imaginative. As it DID crash.
Alternatively,the 'flashes' were the aircraft strobes.
But it DID crash...
My 2 krunos...
Alternatively,the 'flashes' were the aircraft strobes.
But it DID crash...
My 2 krunos...