Lufthansa Pilots to ballot on strike action
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Don't understand...
I fly with a low cost airline and happy as Larry to have a job as a pilot. It's a great job and I earn a descent living. I work hard but before I started flying I worked just as hard.
The classic carrier model is on its way out and it's time we all realize that, and we stop behaving like spoilt little wimps. I get the impression classic airline pilots would like 500-600 hrs a year, more money than their country's prime minister and have nothing but the best hotels and facilities. IMHO, you're spoilt and better stop all the moaning if your companies try to keep the rest at work. There's more people involved than pilots to keep an airline going.
This attitude pisses me off. A friend of me flies LH and he never complained, in fact, he mentioned it's a dream to fly with them. So even a little less would make many mortals utterly happy.
Don't understand....
The classic carrier model is on its way out and it's time we all realize that, and we stop behaving like spoilt little wimps. I get the impression classic airline pilots would like 500-600 hrs a year, more money than their country's prime minister and have nothing but the best hotels and facilities. IMHO, you're spoilt and better stop all the moaning if your companies try to keep the rest at work. There's more people involved than pilots to keep an airline going.
This attitude pisses me off. A friend of me flies LH and he never complained, in fact, he mentioned it's a dream to fly with them. So even a little less would make many mortals utterly happy.
Don't understand....
The so-called 'low cost airlines' are mainly responsible for the erosion of the airline pilot profession. I have nothing but total and utter contempt for them - and for the carrion who fly with such bottom-feeding 'airlines' and who think that €5 tickets to some cow pasture aerodrome in the middle of nowhere is the way ahead.
Good to see LH pilots making a stand for professional standards and quality of service. Long may they continue to do so!
One of these days the bubble will burst for the 'low cost airlines' - hopefully that day won't be too long in coming.
Good to see LH pilots making a stand for professional standards and quality of service. Long may they continue to do so!
One of these days the bubble will burst for the 'low cost airlines' - hopefully that day won't be too long in coming.
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This is not the problem
"The so-called 'low cost airlines' are mainly responsible for the erosion of the airline pilot profession. I have nothing but total and utter contempt for them - and for the carrion who fly with such bottom-feeding 'airlines' and who think that €5 tickets to some cow pasture aerodrome in the middle of nowhere is the way ahead."
My company doesn't pay business class anymore on intra-european flights, even for managers. Because our customers refuse to pay as much for our products as they did in the past. We too need to cut costs in order to survive.
And if I do a short trip with LH on my own, I book a ticket for 99€. I'd never fly with Ryanair nor AB, but I will not accept to pay as much as I did in the past for LH tickets.
LH needs to find a way to earn money under these circumstances. If the staff insists on continuing the old game, the old rules, the company will not survive in the long term. It's as simple as that. Like it or not.
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Thank you Swiss Pilots!!!!!!!!!
Just heard it in an interview with a representative of the Swiss pilots union, they will not fly as strikebreakers on Lufthansa routes.
A dear Thank You towards the Alps
A dear Thank You towards the Alps
Last edited by Charly; 20th Feb 2010 at 09:40.
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Because our customers refuse to pay as much for our products as they did in the past.
The LCCs do so, agreed. But what mainly happened is that to continue generating a slight profit for the sleezy managers, someone had to give up something, someone had to pay the difference between real cost and the too low prices.
It is easy to see that two groups are bleeding for that:
- the employees, mainly pilots who saw their T&Cs eroding dramatically
- the tax payer through subsidies. Mainly on airport fees, but also through heavily underpriced, therefore subsidised aircraft to "save" jobs and politicians elections ....
So the SLFs insulting the pilots on this thread should think twice, or should simply start thinking about how expensive their LCC prices REALLY are, considering everything .....
This would then point the blame to the right direction!
But to ask someone to look for the big picture and to engage his brain seems a lost cause nowadays.
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With all due respect, I think the usual "they're spoilt, now act arrogant and should better shut up"-argument in its various forms forgets a few things about history.
What could be now considered as the "royal treatment" was just standard airline practice before. Then came the sub-standard which now claims the title of the "new world standard". OK, it's all about branding anyway... but is it really what we all want ?
How long before a sub-sub-standard shakes the foundations of the sub-standard and aims for the title of "new global standard" ? And so on... Pointless and endless.
There will always be new blood joining the industry, ready to erode the standards they never knew nor why the standard was like that before. We're all standing on the shoulders of giants (i.e. those who built this industry) but who's teaching the new comers about the wars they never had to fight and the "benefits" they're throwing away now?
What could be now considered as the "royal treatment" was just standard airline practice before. Then came the sub-standard which now claims the title of the "new world standard". OK, it's all about branding anyway... but is it really what we all want ?
How long before a sub-sub-standard shakes the foundations of the sub-standard and aims for the title of "new global standard" ? And so on... Pointless and endless.
There will always be new blood joining the industry, ready to erode the standards they never knew nor why the standard was like that before. We're all standing on the shoulders of giants (i.e. those who built this industry) but who's teaching the new comers about the wars they never had to fight and the "benefits" they're throwing away now?
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A bunch of privileged employees putting up a last stand to defend the indefensible. Period. If they want democracy at LH, then they must logically also ask each and every baggage handler to have the same voice in corporate matters.
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What justifies any labour agreement?
Funny discussion going on here.
Some are saying: "Go for it, LH jocks!"
Others whine over spoiled brats.
Then there's are some who are going to be stranded due cancelled flights.
But what is the essence here?
Why is any contract value justified (or not)?
Why are there 'low cost carriers' as opposed to high(?) cost carriers?
Here is my personal opinion.
The LH fight is the first of many others over a good labour contract that the EU is going to face. If they win, it is going to be really tough for BA or AF for instance to try to break this tight barrier. But if they loose it's going to be avalanche in EU for all labour agreements. Including the so called 'low cost' contracts, because they too benefit indirectly of higher paying carriers on the Continent.
Job security in EU is the highest in the world. The union strongholds made sure that this prime wish of any labourer was firmly fixed in any contract. The LH fight is mainly about job security. Not only their own jobs security, but also their job remuneration that could result in lost high(er) paid positions in the company. Most probably the ones who already hold top jobs at LH don't have to be afraid of loosing anything.
In other words: jobs would still be there, but the compensation will go South for that position over time. So today when a promotion to a larger type is simply put: more money in the bank that could change over time with the access of lower paid pilots (contracts) on LH flights or aircraft.
For one I must say I agree with the effort of trying to hold on to good conditions. Why? Low cost carriers have gone crazy over the abundance of 'zero timers' on the market having them fly for nothing at all and throwing them out after reaching like 300- 500 flight hours (that depends on airline).
The container of unemployed somewhat experienced pilots is so large that is really scary. They all carry with them an enormous training debt of like €100.000 or greater. And of course feeling being treated unfairly and being envious of LH pilots taking home €250.000 per annum or more.
But isn't the reason of those high salaries that they started flying in the first place? Isn't the high pay in industry the reason why banks still serve pilots with credit for their training? I know it is in some countries in Europe.
Now, having said that, there is, I my humble opinion, some solution in way of labour conditions adjustment that would interest LH board and, at the same time benefit all pilots, including those unemployed with a burden of debt. And that solution is raising retirement age. LH pilots are so expensive because they have a generously low retirement age although law allows them to continue fly through 65. That is costing LH a fortune.
Raising it has the nice side-effect it will affect ALL LH pilots, not only the junior jocks. And, for some of you thinking it might interfere with career options for junior and unemployed pilots when the elder stay longer: think again. The enormous money saved by LH when raising retirement age will allow LH to grow much more effectively (certainly when the crisis is over) against much lower cost and growth will benefit all pilots. Now VC will probably say differently, but for sure all pilots that hold top positions at LH today did not climb the ladder all that much as compared to looking at a huge group of their junior pilots. Simply put: since joining they jumped not more than 500 to 1000 places on their seniority list but saw the junior group multiply in LHs' growth. So growth, not retirement, dictates promotion.
Now any walk-out is bad for publicity, not only for the pilot community, but also for LH brand name. And the solution is so simple really.
Looking at that I regret the strike enormously and hope for wisdom of both parties.
Don't touch the pay, raise retirement age!
SM
Some are saying: "Go for it, LH jocks!"
Others whine over spoiled brats.
Then there's are some who are going to be stranded due cancelled flights.
But what is the essence here?
Why is any contract value justified (or not)?
Why are there 'low cost carriers' as opposed to high(?) cost carriers?
Here is my personal opinion.
The LH fight is the first of many others over a good labour contract that the EU is going to face. If they win, it is going to be really tough for BA or AF for instance to try to break this tight barrier. But if they loose it's going to be avalanche in EU for all labour agreements. Including the so called 'low cost' contracts, because they too benefit indirectly of higher paying carriers on the Continent.
Job security in EU is the highest in the world. The union strongholds made sure that this prime wish of any labourer was firmly fixed in any contract. The LH fight is mainly about job security. Not only their own jobs security, but also their job remuneration that could result in lost high(er) paid positions in the company. Most probably the ones who already hold top jobs at LH don't have to be afraid of loosing anything.
In other words: jobs would still be there, but the compensation will go South for that position over time. So today when a promotion to a larger type is simply put: more money in the bank that could change over time with the access of lower paid pilots (contracts) on LH flights or aircraft.
For one I must say I agree with the effort of trying to hold on to good conditions. Why? Low cost carriers have gone crazy over the abundance of 'zero timers' on the market having them fly for nothing at all and throwing them out after reaching like 300- 500 flight hours (that depends on airline).
The container of unemployed somewhat experienced pilots is so large that is really scary. They all carry with them an enormous training debt of like €100.000 or greater. And of course feeling being treated unfairly and being envious of LH pilots taking home €250.000 per annum or more.
But isn't the reason of those high salaries that they started flying in the first place? Isn't the high pay in industry the reason why banks still serve pilots with credit for their training? I know it is in some countries in Europe.
Now, having said that, there is, I my humble opinion, some solution in way of labour conditions adjustment that would interest LH board and, at the same time benefit all pilots, including those unemployed with a burden of debt. And that solution is raising retirement age. LH pilots are so expensive because they have a generously low retirement age although law allows them to continue fly through 65. That is costing LH a fortune.
Raising it has the nice side-effect it will affect ALL LH pilots, not only the junior jocks. And, for some of you thinking it might interfere with career options for junior and unemployed pilots when the elder stay longer: think again. The enormous money saved by LH when raising retirement age will allow LH to grow much more effectively (certainly when the crisis is over) against much lower cost and growth will benefit all pilots. Now VC will probably say differently, but for sure all pilots that hold top positions at LH today did not climb the ladder all that much as compared to looking at a huge group of their junior pilots. Simply put: since joining they jumped not more than 500 to 1000 places on their seniority list but saw the junior group multiply in LHs' growth. So growth, not retirement, dictates promotion.
Now any walk-out is bad for publicity, not only for the pilot community, but also for LH brand name. And the solution is so simple really.
Looking at that I regret the strike enormously and hope for wisdom of both parties.
Don't touch the pay, raise retirement age!
SM
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well it looks like Swiss pilots have refused to break the strike, Austrian pilots have done the same.
Now, BMI is going to use some of its crews to operate the strike breaking flights, even although it is make 130 pilots redundant at the end of the week - unbelievable ..........
Now, BMI is going to use some of its crews to operate the strike breaking flights, even although it is make 130 pilots redundant at the end of the week - unbelievable ..........
Some of our guys have LH flights on their rosters for next week, it will be a b****y disgrace if BALPA do not at least try to to do something about it. They won't of course, they never do.
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Your problem are guys like me.
My company doesn't pay business class anymore on intra-european flights, even for managers. Because our customers refuse to pay as much for our products as they did in the past. We too need to cut costs in order to survive.
My company doesn't pay business class anymore on intra-european flights, even for managers. Because our customers refuse to pay as much for our products as they did in the past. We too need to cut costs in order to survive.
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Low Cost Airlines
In reply to Beagle, it would appear your head really is firmly fixed in the sand....?
Let me explain, I for one, was of the belief that the whole low cost airline model was just a fad some years ago, and have been proven wrong on an annual basis. Like it or not, these guys have not been "falling out the skies" as predicted by many aviation professionals and after discussing company SOP's and general operating standards with many of their crews over the past couple of years it would appear (much to the annoyance of "legacy" crews) that the cockpit crews of these low cost airlines do a good job....
There has been a "sea change" in the way the fare paying public view air travel these days....let's face it, why for years did we pay £200+ for the likes of BA, LH & Swiss to transport us short haul (less than 2 hours) across Europe???
This "charade" went un-noticed by the flying public for many years (be this ignorance or apathy), but now that the cat is out of the bag, so to speak, the public is no longer tolerant of paying top dollar for prima donna pilots and legacy airline management to get them from a similar (note, I do not say the "same") A to B for a fraction of the cost, without additional risks....
This trend is continuing today, and the sooner the "legacy" guys wake up and realise this is a PERMANENT shift in sentiment by the public, the better....the alternative will be a "slow & lingering death" for the legacy airlines and staff.
My prediction for the next 5 years....BA (and to a lesser extent LH) management will happily sit back and let their crews carry out strike actions, driving these airlines into bankruptcy, so that management can return to "a heroes welcome" (in their warped minds at least) and re-structure these failed legacy carriers....
Let us review these comments again on 20 Feb 2015 my friend and see who is more correct?
Let me explain, I for one, was of the belief that the whole low cost airline model was just a fad some years ago, and have been proven wrong on an annual basis. Like it or not, these guys have not been "falling out the skies" as predicted by many aviation professionals and after discussing company SOP's and general operating standards with many of their crews over the past couple of years it would appear (much to the annoyance of "legacy" crews) that the cockpit crews of these low cost airlines do a good job....
There has been a "sea change" in the way the fare paying public view air travel these days....let's face it, why for years did we pay £200+ for the likes of BA, LH & Swiss to transport us short haul (less than 2 hours) across Europe???
This "charade" went un-noticed by the flying public for many years (be this ignorance or apathy), but now that the cat is out of the bag, so to speak, the public is no longer tolerant of paying top dollar for prima donna pilots and legacy airline management to get them from a similar (note, I do not say the "same") A to B for a fraction of the cost, without additional risks....
This trend is continuing today, and the sooner the "legacy" guys wake up and realise this is a PERMANENT shift in sentiment by the public, the better....the alternative will be a "slow & lingering death" for the legacy airlines and staff.
My prediction for the next 5 years....BA (and to a lesser extent LH) management will happily sit back and let their crews carry out strike actions, driving these airlines into bankruptcy, so that management can return to "a heroes welcome" (in their warped minds at least) and re-structure these failed legacy carriers....
Let us review these comments again on 20 Feb 2015 my friend and see who is more correct?
Last edited by 747guru; 20th Feb 2010 at 19:35.
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As Max Angle has stated on the previous page; flights are appearing on BMI rosters for next week; Is Austrian / Swiss employment law vastly different to the UK? I know none of our pilots relish the idea of operating any of them. Frankly it's embarassing that our (former) 'beloved' leader left the airline in such a bl**dy state whilst pocketing millions himself; now we're being told to bust a dispute on top of all that. It stinks.
For the sake of the profession, even though 'we' (BMI) might be seen as part of the problem, I wish you good luck
For the sake of the profession, even though 'we' (BMI) might be seen as part of the problem, I wish you good luck
