Lufthansa Pilots to ballot on strike action
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" I can tell you, if we loose this fight, I will try to go out of aviation as soon as possible (low 30's is my age) to pursue another career. I will refuse to work under a regime which follows the ryanair-isation of aviation employment. "
There is thousands of pilots who will accept a lower TC´s and live happy with it alongside with the company, any major company for that matter. Things still go on with "Top Performance".
Unfortunately this is the new era what we must get used to-one way or another.. I hope you can get a good deal though, all the best
There is thousands of pilots who will accept a lower TC´s and live happy with it alongside with the company, any major company for that matter. Things still go on with "Top Performance".
Unfortunately this is the new era what we must get used to-one way or another.. I hope you can get a good deal though, all the best
Last edited by Northern_Driver; 18th Feb 2010 at 12:16.
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Isn't it funny, the pilots arguments "top money for a top job" and "no outsourcing to too cheap competitors" are always preposterous or arrogant, therefore wrong, until the s#!t hits the very own fan.
I remember journalists, doctors, even politicians throwing around these same arguments with their utmost and (well lobbied) conviction when their jobs or positions were under threat!!!
When it comes to pilots, no contract, no law is respected anymore, the general public simply loves to join in to the demolishment of their perceived overpaied status, for the sake of ultracheap travel ..... until one or two smoking holes start pointing at the peanuts for monkey theme and then suddenly EVERYONE NEEDS AND WANTS top qualified and superbly trained professionals.
What a hypocrisy.
The customer is king and Geiz ist geil mentality has its merits, but stay logical AND FAIR in that game, otherwise at least stand responsible for the consequences.
I remember journalists, doctors, even politicians throwing around these same arguments with their utmost and (well lobbied) conviction when their jobs or positions were under threat!!!
When it comes to pilots, no contract, no law is respected anymore, the general public simply loves to join in to the demolishment of their perceived overpaied status, for the sake of ultracheap travel ..... until one or two smoking holes start pointing at the peanuts for monkey theme and then suddenly EVERYONE NEEDS AND WANTS top qualified and superbly trained professionals.
What a hypocrisy.
The customer is king and Geiz ist geil mentality has its merits, but stay logical AND FAIR in that game, otherwise at least stand responsible for the consequences.
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pilots egos are almost as big as their pay. They seem to believe the whole industry revolves around them and that no other party in their organisation is remotely essential. Lets see them fly with no engineers, no dispatchers, no crew, no customer services to board the fligths, no cargo to make the aircraft pay for itself and then see how important thy are.
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Lets see them fly with no engineers, no dispatchers, no crew, no customer services to board the fligths, no cargo to make the aircraft pay for itself and then see how important thy are
Ah ,I understand, they would certainly do so!
Thought so.
But you mean THEIR plight and fight is justified, ours apparently not?
I see you nodd, and thought so as well.......
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Happyberks - Up yours matey! Just think about this. To get a licensed engineer from scratch, you'll need five years or so. An F/O will take 18 months minimum and a Captain, five years or so. Of the jobs you have mentioned, these are the only ones who are licensed (you forgot about ATC, Fire etc.). Cabin crew can be trained within three weeks or so which leaves the ground handling personnel. Legally, we don't need them. The reasons we use them is convenience and commercial cost. There's not a job there, except maybe driving the tug, that the flight crew can't do and haven't done at some time or another - without training! Egos - I think not. Maybe you just have a problem with them.
Arrogant LH pilots, I don't think so. They have been working for a solution for a while and it appears that their management have backed them into a corner, miss-judging their mood as they did so. I hope they reach a speedy settlement.
PM
Arrogant LH pilots, I don't think so. They have been working for a solution for a while and it appears that their management have backed them into a corner, miss-judging their mood as they did so. I hope they reach a speedy settlement.
PM
To all the "sharp end" chappies at LH:
I hope you're aware that you've lost the media battle.
It's even difficult on THIS forum to discern what your demands are/what your negotiating position is.
And we're all interested and listening.
All I've seen of the German news/heard on the radio is that you have no current contract, you're prepared to forgo a pay increase and.....
Meanwhile, your management is piling it on "consultation in strategy issues wugga wugga wugga"
Never forget:
If they (your potential and current customers, the media and the public at large) didn't hear it, you didn't say it
I hope you're aware that you've lost the media battle.
It's even difficult on THIS forum to discern what your demands are/what your negotiating position is.
And we're all interested and listening.
All I've seen of the German news/heard on the radio is that you have no current contract, you're prepared to forgo a pay increase and.....
Meanwhile, your management is piling it on "consultation in strategy issues wugga wugga wugga"
Never forget:
If they (your potential and current customers, the media and the public at large) didn't hear it, you didn't say it
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This is about the big issue in European aviation nowadays. SCOPE
This fight has been fought by our colleagues on the other side of the atlantic after their big deregulation in the '80`s. The resulting scope clauses in their contracts litterally cover dozens of pages and for good reason.
Now it`s our turn here in Europe to defend our jobs. First BA tried it with OpenSkies, in Scandinavia the pilots are in an ongoing struggle against jobs moving to the Baltic countries and now it`s in Germany.
Gentlemen, we have to win this battle for all our sakes! Not only the pilots, but everybody who works for an airline in the EU will benefit from strong scope clauses that the pilots will work into their contracts.
I have worked closely with the VC people, both on this board and on the last, and I have gotten to know them as extremely professional and responsible.
I wish them all the best in this fight and I hope for all our sakes that they win the battle.
This fight has been fought by our colleagues on the other side of the atlantic after their big deregulation in the '80`s. The resulting scope clauses in their contracts litterally cover dozens of pages and for good reason.
Now it`s our turn here in Europe to defend our jobs. First BA tried it with OpenSkies, in Scandinavia the pilots are in an ongoing struggle against jobs moving to the Baltic countries and now it`s in Germany.
Gentlemen, we have to win this battle for all our sakes! Not only the pilots, but everybody who works for an airline in the EU will benefit from strong scope clauses that the pilots will work into their contracts.
I have worked closely with the VC people, both on this board and on the last, and I have gotten to know them as extremely professional and responsible.
I wish them all the best in this fight and I hope for all our sakes that they win the battle.
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No worries, its not about to loose or win this battle.
This is the normal path every Lufthansa manager seems to take in his career. Weber had his fare share. Now Mayerhuber is keeping low profile and does Franz and Lauer Take their lessons. But even if they all 4 try to hide and let the Media do the dirty work for them, it will come to the same outcome. They cant run the Airline without us and the valid agreements have to be fullfilled!
If we would have a top management, which does act in a responsible and honest manner, we would not have to strike. Most of our demands are not anything new, they are from a valid contract. We demand to fullfill this contract. Not more, not less.
Pacta sunt servanda!
This is the normal path every Lufthansa manager seems to take in his career. Weber had his fare share. Now Mayerhuber is keeping low profile and does Franz and Lauer Take their lessons. But even if they all 4 try to hide and let the Media do the dirty work for them, it will come to the same outcome. They cant run the Airline without us and the valid agreements have to be fullfilled!
If we would have a top management, which does act in a responsible and honest manner, we would not have to strike. Most of our demands are not anything new, they are from a valid contract. We demand to fullfill this contract. Not more, not less.
Pacta sunt servanda!
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Let's hope VC does not care about the media hype - and the campaign run by the LH managament against the pilots.
When the pilots win their case - which they will, this is for sure, they did in 2001 - the media will focus on any next weird thing. And the dumb public will follow. Like we all do, don't we?
As the germans say "Morgen wird eine andere Sau durchs Dorf getrieben".
I remember a media campaign against the "greedy" train drivers a few years ago. Guess what: their union did what had to be done, they won - and 1 week later nobody cared.
As said before: LH management broke contracts, outsourced and played foul.
Now they get the bill. And they probably need that bill to show it to the "shareholders" - to keep their job. Who knows.
When the pilots win their case - which they will, this is for sure, they did in 2001 - the media will focus on any next weird thing. And the dumb public will follow. Like we all do, don't we?
As the germans say "Morgen wird eine andere Sau durchs Dorf getrieben".
I remember a media campaign against the "greedy" train drivers a few years ago. Guess what: their union did what had to be done, they won - and 1 week later nobody cared.
As said before: LH management broke contracts, outsourced and played foul.
Now they get the bill. And they probably need that bill to show it to the "shareholders" - to keep their job. Who knows.
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I know studi personally, and he is a very bright guy.
If he says it's about scope, then scope it is, and certainly worth fighting for, without a doubt.
The very best of luck to them.
If he says it's about scope, then scope it is, and certainly worth fighting for, without a doubt.
The very best of luck to them.
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Does anyone know if Lufthansa Cityline flights (specifically those to/from LCY) will be affected?
@yetmoreSLF:
No they are not affected.As long as the crews are not dependent on dead-head flights you should have no problems
@yetmoreSLF:
No they are not affected.As long as the crews are not dependent on dead-head flights you should have no problems
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Go For It !
Iam with the lufthansa pilots, go fight for your rights. I wish I could do the same but our pilot group is the most devided and selfish bunch in aviation history(you must know where I work know) 
Unity!
Unity!
I Have Control
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Best of luck, LH piloten
Many of us Brits are with you too.
(I support you despite the inconvenience/cost of losing a flight home at my own expense).
Your cause is just. We should stand up and be counted too, but this time the Brits and the Irish are too weak en masse.
(I support you despite the inconvenience/cost of losing a flight home at my own expense).
Your cause is just. We should stand up and be counted too, but this time the Brits and the Irish are too weak en masse.
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Scope wars have been on for 20 years +. Bottom line of all scope war so far was a struggle between management (trying to cut costs) and mainline Copilots (trying to upgrade). Two important parties were not really personally involved - the captains of mainline and the captains of the regionals. These groups just showed solidarity to their respective pilot corps.
This one will be very different.
For once the economic framework has chanced. LCC has become the standard in short and medium haul. Management of the legacy carriers has no real choice, if they want their companies to stay in that sector. They need to get their cost to the market standard – and this time it is LCC defining this standard.
Income from Long Range Business can compensate, but only to some extend.
So the war between copilots and management will be tough this time.
But what is more is a bitter struggle of different pilot groups which is soon to follow.
This is very different to the US. regionals. Flying there is a sort of necessary step in pilots training to get into a mainline carrier. Thus every fight of the mainline Copilots for scope does in fact help the regional captains. The more planes in the mainline, the less time these captains have to fly for the regionals.
In Europe there is no regular career leading from regional to mainline. A former military pilot for example does not fit into the ab-inito system of the legacy carriers. They train their copilots from scratch and have them on the right seat of an A320 with 250h total.
So if the military pilot does not want to become a lend-lease pilot rent out for Ryan et al. he has to seek a career at the regionals. That means harder work for less pay than in the mainline. Still after some years an Instructor Captain makes 110k+ per year. Enough to rise a family decently.
Former scope wars in Europe might not have had the support of the regional captains, but also no real resistance. After all they did not get bigger planes but the safety of their job was not in question. Scope was a problem for their copilots, delaying their upgrading.
This time it is different. The same change in the market with makes the costs of LCC the standard market costs for short and medium distance makes the 50 – 70 seat planes obsolete. Their cost per seat are too high to survive in the new LCC world.
And suddenly scope has become a matter of economic survival for the experienced Captains of regional airlines in Europe.
Now they desperately need the 100-120 seat class to keep a decent airline pilot job at all. They are too old and experienced to be accepted in a right seat. They will be afraid anticipating being a slave of brokers. They will not like the prospect of leaving their families for the Arabian Desert for the last 10 – 20 year of their career. Thus for the first time the regional captains cannot stand idle. They will have no choice but to fight scope.
This has the potential for a bitter and tragic struggle. Two highly professional pilot groups – the mainline copilots and the regional captains fighting each other. Fighting with their only and most effective weapon – stranding the customers.
And during all that bitter struggle Ryan, Easy, AB etc. will not stand idle.
If the mainline copilots prove victorious, the older regional captains will loose their jobs. Too old to learn something else they will have no choice but to buy a Typerating and fill the lines of the brokers catering to the LCC. As a result working conditions at these non seniority carriers will deteriorate further, thus enhancing the pressure on the costs of legacy carriers.
It’s a bitter civil war which European pilots could be facing in the next years. The unions will have a most responsible and challenging job to keep the balance and avoid a dark downward spiral.
This one will be very different.
For once the economic framework has chanced. LCC has become the standard in short and medium haul. Management of the legacy carriers has no real choice, if they want their companies to stay in that sector. They need to get their cost to the market standard – and this time it is LCC defining this standard.
Income from Long Range Business can compensate, but only to some extend.
So the war between copilots and management will be tough this time.
But what is more is a bitter struggle of different pilot groups which is soon to follow.
This is very different to the US. regionals. Flying there is a sort of necessary step in pilots training to get into a mainline carrier. Thus every fight of the mainline Copilots for scope does in fact help the regional captains. The more planes in the mainline, the less time these captains have to fly for the regionals.
In Europe there is no regular career leading from regional to mainline. A former military pilot for example does not fit into the ab-inito system of the legacy carriers. They train their copilots from scratch and have them on the right seat of an A320 with 250h total.
So if the military pilot does not want to become a lend-lease pilot rent out for Ryan et al. he has to seek a career at the regionals. That means harder work for less pay than in the mainline. Still after some years an Instructor Captain makes 110k+ per year. Enough to rise a family decently.
Former scope wars in Europe might not have had the support of the regional captains, but also no real resistance. After all they did not get bigger planes but the safety of their job was not in question. Scope was a problem for their copilots, delaying their upgrading.
This time it is different. The same change in the market with makes the costs of LCC the standard market costs for short and medium distance makes the 50 – 70 seat planes obsolete. Their cost per seat are too high to survive in the new LCC world.
And suddenly scope has become a matter of economic survival for the experienced Captains of regional airlines in Europe.
Now they desperately need the 100-120 seat class to keep a decent airline pilot job at all. They are too old and experienced to be accepted in a right seat. They will be afraid anticipating being a slave of brokers. They will not like the prospect of leaving their families for the Arabian Desert for the last 10 – 20 year of their career. Thus for the first time the regional captains cannot stand idle. They will have no choice but to fight scope.
This has the potential for a bitter and tragic struggle. Two highly professional pilot groups – the mainline copilots and the regional captains fighting each other. Fighting with their only and most effective weapon – stranding the customers.
And during all that bitter struggle Ryan, Easy, AB etc. will not stand idle.
If the mainline copilots prove victorious, the older regional captains will loose their jobs. Too old to learn something else they will have no choice but to buy a Typerating and fill the lines of the brokers catering to the LCC. As a result working conditions at these non seniority carriers will deteriorate further, thus enhancing the pressure on the costs of legacy carriers.
It’s a bitter civil war which European pilots could be facing in the next years. The unions will have a most responsible and challenging job to keep the balance and avoid a dark downward spiral.
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maxrpm
well written posting. Interesting perspective. Although I do not agree with everything you write (e.g. I do believe there is a future for ex-mil pilots in the legacy carriers in Europe), you do raise an interesting point with the potential struggle between pilots of legacy and regional carriers.
This is however far from new. The solution we have found in VNV is to integrate the regional pilots in the framework of the mainline contract (it wasn`t easy at all.........) back in 1996. As a result the scope in the KLM contract now covers everything from 27 seats upwards....
I firmly believe this is the way forward. It is very different from most of what the americans have in their contract and I do not believe there is anything similar yet elsewhere in Europe.
Copilots on mainline KLM now bid for captaincy in the regional cityhopper fleet and the other way around.
This is however far from new. The solution we have found in VNV is to integrate the regional pilots in the framework of the mainline contract (it wasn`t easy at all.........) back in 1996. As a result the scope in the KLM contract now covers everything from 27 seats upwards....
I firmly believe this is the way forward. It is very different from most of what the americans have in their contract and I do not believe there is anything similar yet elsewhere in Europe.
Copilots on mainline KLM now bid for captaincy in the regional cityhopper fleet and the other way around.
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As I understand it, legacy carriers intentionally understimated the trouble generated by LCC in the beginning. Legacy carriers thought (i.e. liked to think) that LCC staff would eventually start a mutiny against management, chop their bosses' head off and impose "more decent" contractual terms, thereby putting an end to the LCC business model.
None of this happened apparently because LCC staff is scattered around Europe, and has very different backgrounds and perspectives on what a "decent contract" looks like. Well divided, easily conquered.
Not to mention the fact that Southwest was already very successful and popular among aviation staff across the US. Legacy carriers seem to have been blinded by their own anxiety and wishful thinking.
I don't think any pilot wants to fly for a crappy salary, or to fly more for less cash. But in the games against management either everyone's onboard, or there's no game (i.e. pilots loose).
Perhaps unions should have paid more attention to student pilots and LCC pilots right from the beginning?
None of this happened apparently because LCC staff is scattered around Europe, and has very different backgrounds and perspectives on what a "decent contract" looks like. Well divided, easily conquered.
Not to mention the fact that Southwest was already very successful and popular among aviation staff across the US. Legacy carriers seem to have been blinded by their own anxiety and wishful thinking.
I don't think any pilot wants to fly for a crappy salary, or to fly more for less cash. But in the games against management either everyone's onboard, or there's no game (i.e. pilots loose).
Perhaps unions should have paid more attention to student pilots and LCC pilots right from the beginning?
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Dream on ...
... and try to continue to squeeze out as much as you can from the LH group. What is wrong if a small group of key experts is blackmailing the rest of the company to pay the next Porsche? Of course, someone has to pay ... but who cares?
Lufthansa should be able to survive the next 10 years, even if the current contracts for the LH pilots aren't modified. So what. Should be enough for a Ferrari, before LH goes to scrap.
Après moi, déluge!
Just bad luck for the rest of the employees, that cannot afford to ignore a changing world - shall they find another job, once LH is breaking up.
Passengers won't pay anymore enough to let your business continue as before. You are in a position to ignore that. Others don't. Their problem, not your's.
Lufthansa should be able to survive the next 10 years, even if the current contracts for the LH pilots aren't modified. So what. Should be enough for a Ferrari, before LH goes to scrap.
Après moi, déluge!
Just bad luck for the rest of the employees, that cannot afford to ignore a changing world - shall they find another job, once LH is breaking up.
Passengers won't pay anymore enough to let your business continue as before. You are in a position to ignore that. Others don't. Their problem, not your's.