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Incident at Airport Dortmund (Germany)

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Incident at Airport Dortmund (Germany)

Old 3rd Jan 2010, 14:32
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Another 737-8 with problems. Could this be becoming statistically relevant comparing with older versions of the 737s? There are plenty of -2-3-4-5-6-7 flying and lately mostly the -8 is making news.

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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 14:39
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Video:


Boeing rast über Startbahn hinaus - n-tv Videoportal
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 14:41
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Back when I did my TR on the 737 we aborted above 80 kts for exactly the same problem. This was during our final exam.
When we came to a complete stop my budy and I look at eachother as in "#### we screwed that one up now didn't we" Turns out the examiner was really happy with what we did.

Guess what will be in the back of my mind if this ever happens in real life.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 14:49
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Even if you do everything perfectly, you can overrun the concrete. Most pilots do forget that. Take-off calculations do not give you a perfect safety margin. Runway condition, brake performance, aerodynamical and thrust performance - there are many variables.

From far it looks like they did a good job, even in overrunning. It's a tough life out there - hopefully the facts and the chief pilots do agree with me.

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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 15:02
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Flaps setting?

I do not fly the 73 thats the reason I'm asking the pros: For me a lot of flaps are hanging out for takeoff (my aircraft max flaps 22 for T/O). Is this a normal setting, based on the conditions this morning?
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 15:24
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No these are the standard recall items in case of an aborted take-off.

-Flaps 40.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 15:34
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Aircraft not damaged, says the airline.
Those pictures suggest a pretty good inspection will be required!
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 15:40
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EVACUATION

1 PARKING BRAKE. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Set C

2 Speedbrake lever . . . . . . . . . . . . DOWN C

3 FLAP lever . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40 F/O

4 Pressurization mode selector . . . . . MAN F/O

5 Outflow VALVE switch . . . . . . . . . Hold in OPEN until the outflow VALVE position indicates fully open F/O

6 If time allows:

Verify that the flaps are 40 before the
engine start levers are moved to CUTOFF. C

7 Engine start levers (both) . . . . . CUTOFF C

8 Advise the cabin to evacuate. C

9 Advise the tower. F/O

10 Engine and APU fire switches (all) . . . . Override and pull F/O

11 If an engine or APU fire warning occurs:
Illuminated fire switch . . . . . . . . . . Rotate to the stop
and hold for 1 second F/O
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 15:45
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Pretty good inspection, and lots of dry seat covers I think.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 15:48
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Evacuate to CYA?

Food for thought; Are the pax worse off by staying aboard (e g Airtours Manchester) or should we avoid the urge to kick them out on the slides 'cos someone might sue if we don't?

Evacuation almost always results in injuries to a significant proportion of the pax and has to be considered as a potential hazard as well as other risks.

I await the day when a RTO´d aircraft is informed by ATC and CC that white smoke is observed issuing from the engine with the faulty fire warning, which has just had a BCF bath from the extinguisher-throw them out to get carted off to hospital and we won´t be criticised?

It's an awkward call and that´s why we´re paid megabucks (allegedly!!) to consider scenarios where there may be no clear answer.

The AB pax are lucky they didn´t get kicked out into the snow to break legs and sprain ankles and shiver in the cold til the ambulance(s) arrive.

I throw this issue open for reasoned discussion and await the brickbats.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 16:18
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The question of if an accurate go/No-Go call can be made with faulty equipment is entirely valid, I guess we'll have to wait for the report to discover what exactly they were being shown.

Overruns are a topic close to my heart, and this statement rang some bells;
It is questionable if the stopway was completely deiced
Disappointingly, I have seen this regularly in Germany and it is quite probable that this scenario played a part in two incidents (that I can think of) where the reports are still outstanding.

Does anyone know if the runway is concrete or tarmac?
EDIT: Its tarmac, I've just had a look
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 16:28
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Normally airspeed xcheck is carried out at 80 kt - and if the abort is carried out right away an overrun should not be likely.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 16:42
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Lot of flap showing in that picture for take off???????

An earlier post stated

Runway is relatively short and stop margins with Airbus A320 with Conf 3 in the 30 to 60 meter region with WET RWY with medium weights and engine anti-ice on. TOGA thrust provides much better margins but it is still a short runway and many companies operating in and out have put restrictions as to who can be the pilot flying
Guess that will be the reason.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 16:49
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As stated by the Wanderer

As long as you are on ground, you might have a look at the groundspeed indication that comes from the IRS.

That schould give a rough estimate, with the reported wind of 020/10kt close enough.
First of all... good job by the crew for protecting life and limb.

Let's not forget the Stanby Airspeed Indicator. Saved my bacon on a steam driven aircraft about 10 years ago. We were also lucky because VMC conditions prevailed.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 17:12
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good grief people, conditions were icy and no one got injured.... the pilot made the RIGHT decision!

Even FRA had tons of cancelations today because of conditions... and they are normally quite prepared, unlike a smaller regional field like Dortmund might be.

Two weeks ago I flew with AB from FRA to Teneriffa and it was a marvelous flight... no complaints from me.

Those of you who are perfect and never do a mistake, raise your hand. Hmmm... not many I see.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 17:41
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Acceleration on a near to unreduced take off (likely with the conditions in dtm today and the load of that aircraft) is pretty fast, so if you do the 80 call it can be quite a bit faster until the decision to abort is taken, wouldn't be surprised if you reach 130, 140 kts until first action is done.

Afaik you need special training to be able to operate out of DTM at air berlin, not every pilot is rated for that and those that are have to either operate frequently from there or renew it pretty often. The new delivered aircraft are all equipped with the short field performance kit and the aircraft involved is the second last one delivered, so probably around 500 hours old.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 18:39
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Video: Cabin View

Winter in Deutschland - RTL.de

30sec from setting tkof thrust to rejection...
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 20:06
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From a runway point of view-Go minded.
From a weather/type of malfunction point of view-Stop minded.

This is a good reminder that we are NOT guaranteed to stop under these conditions, even if we calculate everything correctly, and even if we perform the abort according to SOP. By saying this, I do not mean to imply that this crew did one thing or another.

The outcome could have been completely different if they had continued the take off with unsafe speed indications.

I'm just a bit curious about the amount of snow on top of the engines at the start of the take off. I did not expect to see that.

BTW, AFAIK, the evacuation check list is not a memory check list anymore.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 20:21
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It's obvious they deiced. You can see the deicing fluid shearing as the fluid on the fuselage leaves the aircraft during the first half of the take-off roll, and then reversing direction under the influence of the full reverse thrust. The snow is on top of the engines, because you don't use deicing fluid on engines, to avoid toxic contamination of the bleed air.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 20:27
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You avoid contamination by switching off the bleeds before deice, and last time I deiced they also used air to remove some of the snow on non critical surfaces.
It was just a bit unusual, that's all.
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