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"Who is flying your airplane?"

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"Who is flying your airplane?"

Old 2nd Jan 2010, 19:36
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Roy Hudd: What part did you not understand. F/Os with low hours, F/Os who pay for their type rating or the fact that exprienced pilots fly at some of the airlines for less pay? I do agree in so much as to say, is this an ideal situation, no. But, it is a reality. This does not mean that inexperienced or badly trained pilots are up there flying planes. It just means that, in some airlines crews are getting less of a salary than maybe in other airlines. What are we going to do about it? Thats, what going on in the airline industry. But, I would be wary in assuming that this is a saftey issue. I would look more into the amount of hours and rest we are getting, congestion at major airports, slots, etc, etc.
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Old 2nd Jan 2010, 20:51
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Excellently summed up from Elephant and Castle!
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Old 2nd Jan 2010, 21:18
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MPH-
I know somebody who has been chopped twice by 2 (reputable) airlines who is now paying to fly RHS with a LoCo. I do not see how it can be said there is no safety issue here.
Best regards,
BK
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Old 2nd Jan 2010, 21:20
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The sooner this gets into the press and name and shame the airlines doing it, the better

I ask that we get as much support to this thread asking journalist to take note and run a story.

If you agree, please say so onto this thread
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Old 2nd Jan 2010, 21:37
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Me:

Our friendly journo is "Ian Shoesmith" - http://www.pprune.org/members/166182-shoey1976. He works at the BBC. A PM might be in order.
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Old 2nd Jan 2010, 21:39
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Old 2nd Jan 2010, 21:51
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The studys methodology has been questioned, and in fact it flies in the face of empirical experience. European airlines are extremely safe. It is simply untrue to claim they are not.
Rings a bell? What do you think what will be airlines' reaction if we claim that their properly licensed fresh F/Os are unsafe? I agree that standards of training and checking have dropped sharply recently, but unless there's aeroplane shaped smoking hole, we'll have a hard time convincing public it is so.

We're back to bad old days of blood priority, I'm afraid.
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Old 2nd Jan 2010, 21:57
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A couple of relevant points need to be inserted here. I may be stating the bleedin obvious but they need to be said -

We are in a deep recession, the worst since the 1930's and its a long way from over. Airlines and aircrew are in one of the most volatile of commerces, where the price of oil and financial backing can go awry awfully quickly. I got a hard time off some posters on here for suggesting something like a career structure. It will never happen some said, but it sounds like the airlines need something like this. Its not beyond the wit of man.

Airlines do what they can to stay solvent. Of course they are going to cut back on anything but shareholder profit. Before unions got arsy in the 1970s they had a vital function which has saved thousands of lives - they objected to unsafe conditions, and gained much needed 'Elf and Safety legislation. It seems to me that unions are underpowered as they simply dont have that much clout any longer. I'm not proposing a return to British Leyland style union strength, but if pay to fly crew are permitted and are blatantly unsafe then do something about it.

There is a self-perpetuating myth about SLF on locos. Its not a wanting a cake and eating it too approach to safety and fares. A basic and but effective safety culture is expected. Of the locos I fly with I have never had cause to feel concerned about safety. When oil was cheap I like many others understood that the Ryanair fare of one penny was a marketing ploy. Fair enough, I may have to pay for virtually everything else but thats part of the deal. I wont drink coffee on loco airlines because its very expensive. Same with the food (but as an aside, rail coffee and food is often a tad more expensive than loco airlines) They may be very basic comfort items but that is what they are. I can stand a two hour flight without coffee or sandwiches. I dont in the slightest mind that. On some flights the cabin crew have requested the passengers to clear the seat areas of rubbish and to leave seat belts crossed as it helps keep fares low and helps the cabin crew. No problem with that either. I have no concerns that the aircraft the locos use are modern and safe, with well trained crew, especially Easyjet and Ryanair. I have talked with cabin crew about CRM as its something that I wish we used more effectively in my line of work, and have always had a very well thought out and interesting answer. Safety is an essential not an option.

I would respond positively to the advertisement which said something like " We have to put ten quid on your flight to pay for maintainence and training - wanna join us at 35,000ft?" I would still want to fly that airline even if they said " You will still pay 3 quid for a small paper cup of dried coffee and dried milk with a little lukewarm water squirted into it so its not too lumpy"

Frankly the adverts showing fine champagne in crystal glasses being served to a very comfortable passenger in a part of the aircraft I cant afford to even see let alone go into, leave me totally unimpressed.
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Old 2nd Jan 2010, 23:38
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Re: MercuryDancer

I second MercuryDancer's point. As an innocent UK SLF, my choice to fly cheap or not-so-cheap is not down to the safety aspects, because I have been given no reason to believe that the main locos are any less safe than Big Airlines. I assume, along with my fellow passengers, that the cut price reflects the low level of service and general discomfort of flying with such carriers. If it were made clear to me that the low-cost ticket was achieved by means of hiring low-hours, inexperienced, lightly trained pilots, I'm sure I would not be the only passenger who'd choose to pay the higher price.

I suspect most passengers discount the safety aspect, not because they don't care, but because they genuinely trust that the safety standards are equal. If they're not, the general public need to know.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 02:47
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Our Buffalo crash in the US demonstrates how entry level pilots make their airlines unsafe. So far the US only hires the entry level people in commuters, not major airlines. If Sully is correct this could also affect the major airlines. I think he is correct but it will take another decade. We still have many qualified pilots on furlough so it will take about 10 years to start scratching at the bottom. I hope this doesn't happen but I think it will.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 05:08
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Speaking of Sully..

Watch for "Brace for Impact" on TLC, The Learning Channel, 10 Jan.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 06:32
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That's what happens, when accountants run airlines !!! as somebody said to me once, if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys !

this is of course not the fault of unexperienced pilots, but purely market driven and poor managent decisions !
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 07:41
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps you should rename the thread: ' Who is paying to fly your plane '.
or...

"Aren't you sorry you've been paying those who fly your plane POOH for wages?"


Love old school pilots, love pre-deregulation flights.

Current "economy" crap?

Not so much.

Sad it is indeed, now F is pretty much an echo of what Coach used to be in the 80s...


Miss the old days, want them back!
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 10:51
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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So far everybody points the finger at the pay-for-the-right seat

How would you feel if the Captain of a wide-body with 300 pax has to spend 3h in the bunk in order to legally extend his duty and has to leave the lives of 300 pax and a wide-body that cost 170,000,000 USD in the hands of 1 CPL with 1500h career and less than 500h on type and 1 ATPL with less than 1200 fixed wing and less than 500 on type? As long as they passed their ratings this is legal!!!

We are regularly faced with similar situations these days. In the current economic crisis airlines love to get rid of experienced older/expat guys just because the local/newbies draw 2 times less money. How do you sustain this kind of pressure that management transfers on to you?

I don't like it.

Bet the SLF would hate it if they knew!

Bet the poor sods on AF447 might have had a chance if it was a cruise captain/TRE/TRI in the cockpit when the captain went to sleep...

I wonder what's coming next...
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 11:02
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Can you just remind me how experienced the two Northwest comedians were when they overflew their destination by 150 nms?
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 11:25
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I don't buy the laptop scenario
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 15:21
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A curiosity. Does Ryanair have any crew who have been in constant employment with them since the company's set up, or at least since O'Leary's first days?
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 15:29
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Can you just remind me how experienced the two Northwest comedians were when they overflew their destination by 150 nms?
How experienced were Sully and Skiles at splashdown?

You can play that game all day long and not get anywhere.

Inattention vs inexperienced. Iffin I had to pick one, give me the laptop boys any day of the week. A few red EICAS messages will take care of the day dreaming, nothing but years of looking at a wx radar full of red and magenta will cure inexperience.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 15:56
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experience.

A job vacancy for say a regional in the US. Pilot A has 1,500 hours in Cessna 150. Pilot B has 1,000 hours in a king air or citation jet- in command. Due to the new regs, pilot A will get the job. That isn't progressive. Neither is the European proposal of 150 total time, all sim time, on type. What do you think?

PS for any US pilots, did the majors or any others have a cadet pilot program in the past. Thanks.
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Old 3rd Jan 2010, 16:08
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A curiosity. Does Ryanair have any crew who have been in constant employment with them since the company's set up, or at least since O'Leary's first days?
I wouldnt know if some had been from the very start but theres certainly some "old farts" still around

Shock shock horror many of them actually enjoy going to work everday.
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