Garuda pilot's conviction overturned
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Garuda pilot's conviction overturned
You may remember the Garuda accident in March 2007, well I just saw this news release:
Garuda pilot's conviction overturned - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
I don't agree with the jail sentence, however the quashing of the conviction is ridiculous.
Garuda pilot's conviction overturned - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
I don't agree with the jail sentence, however the quashing of the conviction is ridiculous.
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(Your link gives revolving news )
Garuda pilot's conviction overturned - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Garuda pilot's conviction overturned - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
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Unbelievable. I'm against jailing pilots when planes crash if they made a mistake. But this guy willingly violated SOP and several safety systems, operating in a reckless manner. He DESERVES jail time just as a bus driver deserves jail time if he drives at twice the speed limit and kills 25 of his passengers in the process.
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You would have to shake your head in amazement at the supposed impartiality of the Indonesion legal system, when it allows such incompetance free to fly again.
I'm not sure I'd even lend him my pedal cycle.
I'm not sure I'd even lend him my pedal cycle.
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WTF!!
They'll execute or lock you up for decades for a minor (in the west) drug offences but when you actually kill people with culpable airmanship you can walk free.
I feel for those Indonesian and foreign travellers families whose loved ones perished. Very cruel decision.
I feel for those Indonesian and foreign travellers families whose loved ones perished. Very cruel decision.
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Pilot freed
No one should be surprised at this outcome. Corruption goes from the "bottom feeders" all the way to the top in Indonesia. Take a few grams of "grass" into Bali and get 20 years in prison. Kill 21 passengers because of a total lack of regard for SOP's and not only get your conviction overturned, but also have all charges dropped. And what do you think our fearless leaders will have to say? The silence will be deafening!!!
The factual evidence of this tragic accident would appear to most intelligent human beings to point to the quintessential example of gross negligence.
But sometimes, reality in foreign countries is based upon completely different sets of criteria to what many of us believe to set the minimum standards of human behaviour and to what civilization is supposed to be all about...
There are many airlines in the world that an intelligent, or at least common sense equipped person, should not step foot upon...but then many take the risk on a price-weighted decision.
Very sad...
But sometimes, reality in foreign countries is based upon completely different sets of criteria to what many of us believe to set the minimum standards of human behaviour and to what civilization is supposed to be all about...
There are many airlines in the world that an intelligent, or at least common sense equipped person, should not step foot upon...but then many take the risk on a price-weighted decision.
Very sad...
Everything about Indonesia and aviation is a sick joke. One of my countrymen couldn't live with the regulated aviation environment in Europe so he went to Indonesia. 15 years later he is still there running a questionable operation... 
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Advances in aviation systemtic safety, CRM, TEM and automation etc have all contributed to making air travel very safe. Why is it then with all these levels of protection that it is still possible in a modern multicrew airliner for crew rogue actions / violations to be accepted or even endorsed. Is life so cheap in indonesia that greed and loss of face comes before what is safest? If these issues can not be addressed it is unlikey Indonesias' aviation safety record will change.
This guy deserves to spend the rest of his life in jail - what he did was virtually murder.
It is not as if he was landing on a short runway in marginal wx and events conspired against him - he was totally reckless. I mean 220kts and flap 5! what on earth was he thinking?
No excuse whatsoever - should have been life inside. End of.
It is not as if he was landing on a short runway in marginal wx and events conspired against him - he was totally reckless. I mean 220kts and flap 5! what on earth was he thinking?
No excuse whatsoever - should have been life inside. End of.
Is life so cheap in indonesia that greed and loss of face comes before what is safest? If these issues can not be addressed it is unlikey Indonesias' aviation safety record will change.
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I imagine this would be one of the rare occasions when insurance underwriters get involved with specific airline employees and I think, in this instance, the underwriters would withdraw cover for this pilot and any aircraft he flew.
The primary insurance cover may well be written by a local Indonesian company but their retention will be minimal, probably less than one percent of the total fleet value and little or nothing of the liabilities, so the vast majority of the cover will be written in the London Re-Insurance market and it is they who will call the shots.
The primary insurance cover may well be written by a local Indonesian company but their retention will be minimal, probably less than one percent of the total fleet value and little or nothing of the liabilities, so the vast majority of the cover will be written in the London Re-Insurance market and it is they who will call the shots.
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Sorry for the thread drift ..
ampclamp Are you from DownUnder ?
Well, for the West (and the Down Under) drugs are "OK", but for Asians, that is as bad as murder ..
I know there are a few expat guys in Indonesia's Death row, for drug trafficking, and it is unfair to single out Indonesia, for that subject.
I am not condoning the pilots action, but, calling drug usage or trafficking as 'minor' is not fair. In a skewed up anology, would you be happy to fly if the pilot had a 'bit' of drugs before his flight ??
And, when you are in a foreign land, you must respect the rule of that land, and if you consider it is norm back home, and you want it to be norm in another country - no comments ...
BTW, talking of Asian laws, in Singapore, touching a woman without her permission leads to painful caning in the buttocks ..
In West, you walk off with a warning or a week in the holding pan, at the worst ..
Back to the thread: I was told there was a lot of mudslinging going on, and to keep the pilot quite, he was declared as not guilty .. Maybe he can fly the hordes of 'feeder' liners .. and lately there is a massive expansion of rural operators ..
ampclamp Are you from DownUnder ?
Well, for the West (and the Down Under) drugs are "OK", but for Asians, that is as bad as murder ..
I know there are a few expat guys in Indonesia's Death row, for drug trafficking, and it is unfair to single out Indonesia, for that subject.
I am not condoning the pilots action, but, calling drug usage or trafficking as 'minor' is not fair. In a skewed up anology, would you be happy to fly if the pilot had a 'bit' of drugs before his flight ??
And, when you are in a foreign land, you must respect the rule of that land, and if you consider it is norm back home, and you want it to be norm in another country - no comments ...
BTW, talking of Asian laws, in Singapore, touching a woman without her permission leads to painful caning in the buttocks ..
In West, you walk off with a warning or a week in the holding pan, at the worst .. Back to the thread: I was told there was a lot of mudslinging going on, and to keep the pilot quite, he was declared as not guilty .. Maybe he can fly the hordes of 'feeder' liners .. and lately there is a massive expansion of rural operators ..
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Something tells me that this will turn out to be one of these "not who you know but who you blow" cases...
In any other country, you'd be seeing roadside stands selling "Garuda Pilot Jerky" by now - they would have been {rightly} flayed and hung to dry.
I guess the base message here is that if you think you're going to screw up, better do it in Indonesia - after you've made a few pals.
It's pretty much the same world-wide. In the US, your caning comes in the form of a huge legal battle that has been known to force some into bankruptcy.
That's not unique. You can look at any country's history and find examples of the same.
The way you save face is by dealing with it at some point in the future - which I suspect is not what we'll see in this issue.
I'll throw out an old saw: "Just because you can doesn't mean you should."
I'll modify it: "Just because you can afford the license fees, insurance, pay for the pilots and crew, and lease airframes, doesn't mean you should operate an airline."
Quite honestly, some folks don't belong in aviation.
I can better understand some of the HUGE safety transgressions which occur in Africa - they're merely trying to connect parts of that huge continent as best they can, and they know the risks.
But when you present an under-funded operation which apparently lacks any of the traditional attitudes regarding airline safety and try to pass it off as an international carrier, that's another whole frigging deal.
Blacklisted? Sure.
The legit carriers servicing Indonesia don't need the competition, and folks are better off flying with an operator at least somewhat interested in preserving a long-term reputation.
In any other country, you'd be seeing roadside stands selling "Garuda Pilot Jerky" by now - they would have been {rightly} flayed and hung to dry.
I guess the base message here is that if you think you're going to screw up, better do it in Indonesia - after you've made a few pals.
ecureilx writes:
BTW, talking of Asian laws, in Singapore, touching a woman without her permission leads to painful caning in the buttocks ..
BTW, talking of Asian laws, in Singapore, touching a woman without her permission leads to painful caning in the buttocks ..
Centaurus quotes:
Is life so cheap in indonesia that greed and loss of face comes before what is safest? If these issues can not be addressed it is unlikey Indonesias' aviation safety record will change.
Is life so cheap in indonesia that greed and loss of face comes before what is safest? If these issues can not be addressed it is unlikey Indonesias' aviation safety record will change.
The way you save face is by dealing with it at some point in the future - which I suspect is not what we'll see in this issue.
I'll throw out an old saw: "Just because you can doesn't mean you should."
I'll modify it: "Just because you can afford the license fees, insurance, pay for the pilots and crew, and lease airframes, doesn't mean you should operate an airline."
Quite honestly, some folks don't belong in aviation.
I can better understand some of the HUGE safety transgressions which occur in Africa - they're merely trying to connect parts of that huge continent as best they can, and they know the risks.
But when you present an under-funded operation which apparently lacks any of the traditional attitudes regarding airline safety and try to pass it off as an international carrier, that's another whole frigging deal.
Blacklisted? Sure.
The legit carriers servicing Indonesia don't need the competition, and folks are better off flying with an operator at least somewhat interested in preserving a long-term reputation.
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The jail term may be confusing this.
In a "Western" environmemt we prefer to keep the law out of it.
In a case such as this the licensing authority would probably cancel the licence pending re-train and re-check.
The employer would probably bump the guy down to provisional F/O pending re-train and re-check, with a possible never to be given command again note on file.
Nothing so far says this is not the case, and some posters have suggested that the employer, at least, has put limits in place.
I think we need more info, and like others I'm not happy with courts sorting out pilot liability.
In a "Western" environmemt we prefer to keep the law out of it.
In a case such as this the licensing authority would probably cancel the licence pending re-train and re-check.
The employer would probably bump the guy down to provisional F/O pending re-train and re-check, with a possible never to be given command again note on file.
Nothing so far says this is not the case, and some posters have suggested that the employer, at least, has put limits in place.
I think we need more info, and like others I'm not happy with courts sorting out pilot liability.
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From Jambone's Link:
"...saying Captain Marwoto's negligence was not "legally and convincingly" proven."
I guess 21 victims and a hull loss don't count as "legally and convincingly proven" then. So, dear Court, enlighten me what is required for a "legal and convincing proof" ??
In addition, IMHO 2 years of jail would certainly not have helped in this case. I fear he'll be sitting in front again sooner or later putting passengers lives at risk. Has he learned from his accident ? Given his idea about wanting to fly again I guess he hasn't learned a bit. And that's what makes it dangerous...
OTOH I assume Garuda has become a lot safer now that he's not working there anymore...
"...saying Captain Marwoto's negligence was not "legally and convincingly" proven."
I guess 21 victims and a hull loss don't count as "legally and convincingly proven" then. So, dear Court, enlighten me what is required for a "legal and convincing proof" ??
In addition, IMHO 2 years of jail would certainly not have helped in this case. I fear he'll be sitting in front again sooner or later putting passengers lives at risk. Has he learned from his accident ? Given his idea about wanting to fly again I guess he hasn't learned a bit. And that's what makes it dangerous...
OTOH I assume Garuda has become a lot safer now that he's not working there anymore...