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United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser

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United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser

Old 31st Dec 2009, 05:49
  #781 (permalink)  
 
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CRM

While new to this thread, I find it most amusing. On one hand there is a group willing to crucufy a captain. On the other hand there is a group that have the "I am captain, hear me roar." If assisting a crew member off the aircraft at "any altitude" is your example of CRM...it's no wonder there are issues between the cockpit and cabin crews. Shouldn't the captain be able to handle situations and crew members to ensure safe flights for all? If captains have the "I am God attitude" doesn't sound like much of a leader but more of a tyrant. Makes for troubling thoughts for passengers.
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Old 31st Dec 2009, 08:25
  #782 (permalink)  
 
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Letterman

Me thinks (or hopes) Yenaldlooshi's comments are very much tongue in cheek. Note his/her age and current occupation.
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Old 31st Dec 2009, 16:36
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Remember, CRM stands for "Cockpit Resource Management!"
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Old 31st Dec 2009, 17:30
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CRM...CLR???

After inquiring...at United...they have a program for all Flight Personnal (cockpit & Flight Attendants) called, "CLR." "Command, Leadership Resource." This is a program that aides communication between the two groups. It does not take away captains authority but is in place so the the two groups can work together more easily, considering the climate of flying in this day and age, perfect example last week on Delta flight from Amsterdam. The Flight Attendants are the "eyes and ears" for the cockpit. From my, understanding, there is not a lot of "chest thumping" of, 'I am captain', but a much better working reletionship between the two groups. In this thread...I must say...there is quite a bit of the "chest thumping" attitude. And it sounds like much of it is from retired pilots. Many entries begin with, "when I was captain" or when I was flying" etc. Attitudes and times do change. Captains authority does not change but, how one handles that responsibility and exercises it says alot. In my opinion, if a captain lands an international flight because of a dislike/personality clash or whatever with a flight attendant...that appears to be a sign of a pilot who is not a skilled leader. After all, the captain, male or female, is the leader of the crew. I highly suspect that a "food tampering" issue was NOT at stake. If I read this thread correctly, the Purser was not removed from flying or suffered any negative consequences and that says alot right there. but the captain has not flown. While, I do believe that a captain has the right to land if he/she feels the necessity, this seems way out of proportion. If a captain that is in comand of an aircraft can't manange to continue to fly the remaing 2 hours to final destinaion after being in the air for over eight hours because of a problem with a flight attendant, I find concerning.It appears there was no imment medical emergency, threat to the crew or aircraft...if there was, by the Purser, would he have not been detained in Miami?! Apparently, none of these problems existed, therefore; I find the actions of this captain, "over the top" and that is more disturbing than anything.
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Old 31st Dec 2009, 23:50
  #785 (permalink)  
 
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letterman

A friend of BoF are we.

Your "qualified" insight comes from what experience?

This has been done to death and the only people that know the real story are the Captain and the Chief purser.

It is not a democracy, the aircraft only has ONE commander.
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Old 1st Jan 2010, 00:37
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"This has been done to death and the only people that know the real story are the Captain and the Chief purser."

so baring this in mind letterman might have a point for goodness sake
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Old 1st Jan 2010, 01:05
  #787 (permalink)  
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Well I think it would help if Letterman had taken the time and trouble to both read and comprehend all of the previous posts before making any comment.

Clearly he hasn't bothered, or has 'skimmed' and missed some very salient points already made and answered. Cityfan made several points worth considering.
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Old 1st Jan 2010, 04:40
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parabellum

Yes, I have read the posts on this thread. I have more than skimmed them, after being told about it"s existence from a friend of mine, a pilot at United Airlines. I stand by my observations. There seems to be a straight forward approach to this situation. The captain chose an action, the flight attendant did not suffer any consequences and the pilot is not flying. From what i read these are facts. Anything else seems to me, to be speculation.
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Old 1st Jan 2010, 04:56
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I was hoping this thread would die.
Around and around again.
Nothing new.
Please, no more feeding.
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Old 1st Jan 2010, 07:35
  #790 (permalink)  
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letterman, I don't think people are prepared to take such pronouncements of opinion from an unknown newbie with no history who makes no mention of experience or expertise in the industry. So I suggest you shut it. For all we know, you could be a teenager flipping burgers for a living. This is not a place for everyone in the world to make a pronouncement- it is supposed to be where industry professionals come together to discuss matters. That goes for niged as well. The only reason there is access in R&N is because it is impractical to physically restrict access to experienced professionals, but comments from completely unknowns who don't even have the courage to put their experience down are not taken a lot of notice of....especially when they have plainly not bothered reading the whole thread!
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Old 1st Jan 2010, 12:37
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While new to this thread
Oh come off it B.O.F The only thing new to this thread is the username you are using. Too many "tells". I can accept you would have a different viewpoint, but you are starting to lose credibility by morphing in this manner.
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Old 1st Jan 2010, 13:14
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"So I suggest you shut it"

You seem proud of your badge of honour mr rainboe "toxic".
Do you speak to people like that at work also?
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Old 1st Jan 2010, 13:27
  #793 (permalink)  
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Most professionals are tired of ill-informed comment being made by everyone who thinks they are a sudden instant expert on CRM, command authority, running an aeroplane moving at 600mph and human factors. This place is a discussion forum for professionals, not an 'everybody who has something to say, chip in- the more opinions the better!' forum, particularly when they obviously haven't followed the whole discussion. That is why the same old menial points keep being raised as a 'new discovery'. You and letterman (whose aviation qualification is having a 'pilot friend at United') feel qualified to join in at a late stage and offer your opinion. Why should anybody listen to you? What expertise do you have? 2 posts, no bio- what makes you think your opinion has any validity? Some would say only the people who have worked this life have any opinion worth listening to! I did, and have done, for 38 years. I don't think you have any valid opinion worth reading.
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Old 1st Jan 2010, 13:32
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This is not a place for everyone in the world to make a pronouncement- it is supposed to be where industry professionals come together to discuss matters.
Have to agree with Rainboe, his contributions to this website have been outstanding, not always agree with him, may be he is misunderstood by some (including myself sometimes) but his experience and knowledge regarding current aviation matters are always an interesting read and to the point.

Also agree with martinmax69,
I was hoping this thread would die.
Around and around again.
Nothing new.
Please, no more feeding.
there is not much more that can be said on this matter other that the Captain is the boss. (in my view)

by bearfoil: There is not a hint of anything from the Company, or the crew involved. I expect there will be none. Done, are we?
Yep, let's hope so!
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Old 1st Jan 2010, 13:52
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A bit more measured this time, thankyou!
You may have a point there but telling people to shut it
is only going to inflame matters and I was quite happy to be
quiet untill you in all your abundant all knowing wisdom decided
to be quite so rude. If you want less posts by non aviation
related professionals you could start by being less rude.

Thankyou
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Old 1st Jan 2010, 15:22
  #796 (permalink)  
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Have been following the thread for a long time, and I thought lettermans post was a very reasonable assessment of thread and incident. Reactions from professional "chest thumpers" kind of validate his post.
 
Old 1st Jan 2010, 15:47
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Rainboe...yes, toxic

I don't feel it matters whether I'm in your profession or not. As a frequent passenger, I have a vested interest in what happens with crews on airplanes! Your rude not to mention crude approach is more in line with the 1940"s and Hitler. I hope you're retired, you're not a benefit to any airline ot the passengers it carries.
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Old 1st Jan 2010, 16:08
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I've got a vested interest what happens in the operating room and operation conducted by a surgeon, yet I know bloody nothing about the matter and mostly understand when to shut my gob to hide my ignorance on matters medical.
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Old 1st Jan 2010, 16:46
  #799 (permalink)  
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That surgeon thing is a good analogy. Having every Tom, Dick and Harry blunder in with a opinion on what was going on in that aeroplane and how inter crew relationships should be conducted is akin to me going into a medical forum, not reading the threads, and passing an opinion on the operating theatre surgeon's relationship with the staff and how he speaks to them and what his personality is! I don't do that, why do non aviation professionals feel they can come in here and give us the benefit of their (zero) experience, and have the arrogance to start criticising a captain's alleged conduct?

That seat can be very isolated sometimes. Low fuel, bad weather, technical faults.....add on prima donna crew- it can be very difficult sometimes. If an experienced captain makes a decision, his motives should be listened to. He can conduct himself, within reason, how he likes, as long as he does the job right. So all the 'shoot from the hip' judgements about his alleged conduct are worthless. It is not a popularity contest. Like the surgeon in an operation, he has the ultimate authority to conduct it as he sees fit, and if the surgeon cancels out during the procedure, he's doing it from the basis of his experience. Some of you should remember that. It is not a home judgement of his decision on your remote control: 'press red button if you think he was right, blue button if you think he was wrong!' If United decide his decision was not valid, they will handle it. We don't need idiot laymen here ponderously deciding the outcome on minimal information. We all know most surgeons probably have buried a few of their poor decisions, but somehow some of you are looking (and hoping!) at this as a career termination matter. A safety decision was made, nobody was hurt, and the passengers continued with minimal delay. On that plane it might have felt serious, though safety was not compromised. Off that plane, it was a storm in a teacup, nothing more.

Some of you need to keep out of this matter!
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Old 1st Jan 2010, 19:41
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Who are the "we" that you have elected yourself to speak for exactly, niged? Yes, you are allowed to come on here and post about a subject that you have no experience in whatsoever and no real knowledge. Because you have been a PAX, does that give you any credibilty to be speaking with such certainty about a subject that you have not been trained in, educated in and have no experience in? You think that makes your opinion (and that is all it is) valid? (My comments apply to letterman as well and others).

You think that you have the right to comment on a profession and dress down Professional Pilots on this forum? When you show a total lack of understand and respect for what all Pilots must endure and what they have sacrificed to get to their position with any carrier, you not only demean them, but you demean yourself. If you had a clue of the education, all the licenses, the ratings, the expense, the sacrifice, the struggles and the total committment, talent, hard work, the years and determination required just to get to first base at an Airline, you would not make such off-hand flippant remarks here.

Those of us who flew in the glory days and then lived through the strikes and walked the lines, deregulation, 9/11 and the demise of our once great industry have walked the walk and talked the talk. You have not.

Those of us who made it to the left seat and have coped with a plethora of issues with our carrier, i.e. bankruptcy, lowering of pay, crumbling pensions, greedy CEOs, and hundreds of other negative changes to our profession that would fill this entire forum, is ON TOP OF being a Pilot In Command. You will never be able to comprehend being in charge of and responsible for thousands of lives, multi-million dollar A/C, your crews, or having often, mere minutes to deal with all the issues that can and do arise with the operation of the A/C, WX, the Crew, the PAX and more, unless you have been there. You will never know the stress, the fatigue, the pressure, the never ending vilgilance, the responsibility, or the daily enduring sacrifice that Pilots experience and the obligation and personal resolve that they make to do the best damn job that they can, each and every day that they fly you off to see your Grandmother.

The Captain has the first, the last and the final responsibility. The joy, the fulfillment of his dreams, the satisfaction, the pride and the burdon, the accountability and the onus are on his shoulders. He is where the operation of the A/C and all of it's entities come together. No human being is perfect. When faced with a difficult situation in which there are several options, look for the most conservative solution. Everyone is subject to making an error in judgement. If you make a mistake, you admit it, correct it, learn from it and move on and resolve to always do better. Never be afraid to seek advice from others. You will not always have the answers. What you will always have, is the responsibility for making all the final decisions, as the Captain. Your quest for excellence never ends. That desire comes from you and you alone.

So when you come on here with such a certain and arrogant know-it-all attitude, and believe you have a legitmate opinion about a subject of which you have neither the education, background, training, knowledge of, true understanding or experience in, you really don't. I am not slamming you nor starting a fight with you or anything of the sort. I am however, trying to educate you.

I have been a reader of this forum for awhile and just recently, a poster. I see a lot of this nonsense going on between the "public" and the Professional Pilots. I felt an obligation to try and explain for you, why this is an issue for many Pilots, in the hope that you might be able to begin to get a grasp of what we mean and how we feel.

If you had come here to ask a polite question or make a comment that has not already been made and rehashed a dozens times already, or if you had really bothered to read this thread throughly and tried to comprehend the posts before commenting, and if you had even begun to realize the limited scope of your actual knowledge, you would have been greeted in a much different and more positive way. I really resent such cavalier and ignorant behavior on here just because anyone on the planet is allowed to post. Along with that freedom should come some semblance, insight and recognition of your own limitations in doing so and not the degradation of Pilots who do know and understand what they are speaking of.

Last edited by Old School Flyer; 1st Jan 2010 at 22:16.
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