United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser

[eliptic]

Perhaps if the mods would remove BOACs nasty personal comments

BOAC??

It is you and your co-pilot that can´t even write 2 sentences without being rude and nasty to everyone without 5 stripes,,

[One Outsider]

Originally Posted by FrequentSLF

...however seems (at lest to me) that anytime that someone is criticizing a pilot you came on his/her defense...

The monday morning quarterback second guessers, who infest every thread around here with their insistence on commenting on everything they have no experience, insight, understanding or knowledge of, needs to be told they are just that.

People who don't know what they don't know, don't know much.

[Rananim]

Well,people are entitled to their opinions.Captains have different command styles.Some even call themselves flight managers.I come form the old school;I believe in the chain of command,I loathe political correctness,I believe the job title is pilot not flight manager,I know from experience that both pilots and FAs can be difficult SOB's,but above all I believe in the skipper's duty to his crew,passengers,and his profession.Integrity.You never let a little thing like this disturb you at FL350.Your duty is the safe completion of the flight and care of your crew,passengers and aircraft.If you cant work it out amicably,stand her down and replace her with second most senior FA.Explain calmly why youre doing it and what you will say in the report after landing.Speak with a firm but quiet voice;no need for a shouting match.Heart rate stays at 70 during the whole scenario.IMHO,thats what a good skipper does.Over and out.

[Rainboe]

The monday morning quarterback second guessers, who infest every thread around here with their insistence on commenting on everything they have no experience, insight, understanding or knowledge of, needs to be told they are just that.

Thank you, words I could not have expressed better myself. Any idiot with a keyboard here suddenly decides he is well qualified to comment and criticise anybody, and make it public! In this case, a specific target is mentioned and known. It is not black and white- he was not caught with a smoking gun standing over a dead body. Nobody has given him any benefit of doubt that maybe in his case he took a right decision that fitted him and kept everybody safe and sound- what is actually meant to be the only priority!

LovestoflyPurser makes an impassioned accusation against him

On that note, the Captain on this flight has had a long history of cancelling flights & causing delays. Customer Service knows when they see his name on the crew dec it's a 50/50 chance the flight will not go, or will go the next day. This Captain has a number of F/O who have placed him on their NoFly list, and everyone knows to be on egg shells around him. Yes, I have flown with him, no I am not a dinousaur (nor do I hope to be called one even when I'm 60 & still flying ) Sorry, I have a wonderful husband who makes great money, but I really love what I do! I do love the flying & have fun with my PAX (I even married one)

I know the Purser & she is well respected by all and I am not surprised that the crew & F/O's backed her.

All unsubstantiated and completely exaggerated accusations to make against anybody.

The crew and F/Os backed her? They didn't in MIA, did they? Why should they wait until ORD? When I see a case of mud flinging to point a finger of blame, I remember the pointed finger that points both ways. There is indeed a strong suspicion that the rest of the crew have a lot of explaining to do about what I see as their extraordinary behaviour as well.

[Dawdler]

Rainboe Quote:

The crew and F/Os backed her? They didn't in MIA, did they? Why should they wait until ORD? There is indeed a strong suspicion that the rest of the crew have a lot of explaining to do about what I see as their extraordinary behaviour as well.

I seem to remember an earlier post where it was stated that the off-loaded Purser, persuaded the rest of the CC to continue the flight to attenuate the inconvenience to the paying customers.

I am saddened to read L2FP's apparently honest post dismissed as

All unsubstantiated and completely exaggerated accusations to make against anybody

You may have knowledge of the individuals concerned, but to dismiss another UA employees's post in such a way shows an intolerance of other's views.

[MU3001A]

Rainboe: Let me point out that he sat and considered what to do for many hours.

Exactly, and the best he could come up with to resolve the situation during that extended period of time, was to divert the aircraft and offload the purser in MIA? What situation? Using your own argument that the rest of the crew apparently only started talking bad about the captain after reaching chigago and after signing up for the final leg to ORD. What intolerable situation existed during the 6 hours to MIA that didn't exist on the 3 hour leg to ORD? The mere presence of the purser back in the cabin? Makes no sense. There doesn't seem to have been an actual ongoing problem or situation for the captain to resolve. It doesn't take four stripes to devine the captain's motivations here, doesn't take any IMHO. He was acting out retribution and punishing her, pure and simple.

As I have said, no way to run an airline.

I would be very surprised to find he has been dismissed. As I pointed out earlier, any employee may expect to be suspended with pay whilst decisions are reviewed.

I agree. This will be a tricky one for UAL to resolve without sparking a civil war throughout the company, between the flight deck and cabin. Extended 'sick leave' and anger management counceling for the captain followed by some desk job in the training department, maybe some notional re-training for the purser would be my guess.

[epc]

All unsubstantiated and completely exaggerated accusations to make against anybody.

The crew and F/Os backed her? They didn't in MIA, did they? Why should they wait until ORD? When I see a case of mud flinging to point a finger of blame, I remember the pointed finger that points both ways. There is indeed a strong suspicion that the rest of the crew have a lot of explaining to do about what I see as their extraordinary behaviour as well.

3 UA employees have posted in this thread.

1 claimed he/she was on the flight.

1 claimed he/she knew the off-loaded purser personally and knew of the captain by internal reputation.

Both backed the purser. But Rainboe doesn't believe them.

Another UA employee claimed that the purser indeed stayed on the fly schedule, while the captain did not. Does Rainboe not believe this one, either?

3 UA emloyees have made many statements. This board is read by many other UA employees. Not a single UA employee has come out and contradicted anything these 3 employees has said.

3 UA employees and air transport industry news have all reported that only the captain was removed from fly schedule by the company, which is the only entity that knows the history of either individuals involved, and can interview the 2 FO's and other crews on board.

This entity has 4 options: 1) keep both flying; 2) keep both on the ground; 3) keep only the purser on the ground; and 4) keep only the capt on the ground. It chose to do 4), the one that most prejudicial to the capt.

That says a lot.

I am not passing any personal judgment on the capt. I am only noting that others who know the capt professionally better than even you, Rainboe, have passed a judgment, which is to immediately stop him from flying.

[CR2]

Damned poor customer service.... Times are tough in this business; inconveniencing pax should be avoided. If the Purser was running around with a machete shouting "Down with (insert your choice)" then fair enough. This was a pissing contest by all that I see reported here.

Of course.... we DO NOT know all of it. But Rainboe, you know that too; I fully understand where you are coming from & largely agree. However.... There is something that doesn't sound right with this entire incident. I will say this though... If it does turn out to be what I suspect (guess, surmise etc), then the Commander needs his head looked at.

As an aside, why did the Capt need to sign the G/D in the first place? The signature box bottom right says "Capt or Authorized Agent". I always signed ours myself (Loadmaster at the time) and distributed them as needed (ok agree small freighter crew is not the herd you pax peeps have to deal with). Strange that. I wouldn't think of bothering the Capt with something so trivial.

[Latearrival]

The original incident has become secondary

On the surface, things don’t look good for the Captain but more will be revealed at a later date (one way or another) and we should reserve final judgment. Agreed.

HOWEVER, as others have said, what is most disturbing about this thread is the attitude of some who appear to be representing the profession. While other pilots have supported the comments made by LovestoflyPurser, Rainboe has now dismissed them as having no merit. What a surprise.She is after all just another lowly purser and we all know that cabin crew go to work every day with the mission of making life miserable for pilots. And when someone like BOAC provides a little background insight it becomes “mudslinging”. After all the mud that has been slung in the other direction……

LTFP is right. The problem is no respect. No respect for cabin crew, no respect for pilots with a different point of view, no respect for professionals in related fields, no respect for paying passengers. Respect begets respect.

What’s the difference between a pilot and God? God doesn’t think he’s a pilot. Said in jest but made for this thread. Fortunately, most of us over the age of five realize that just because someone speaks last or loudest, it doesn’t make him right.

Apologies to Captains and First Officers who aren’t dinosaurs, have respect for others and have brought sanity to this thread….. Parabellum, BOAC, Dani and Rananim and others. I still have a lot of respect for your profession—one of the most demanding imaginable.

[Rainboe]

On that note, the Captain on this flight has had a long history of cancelling flights & causing delays. Customer Service knows when they see his name on the crew dec it's a 50/50 chance the flight will not go, or will go the next day. This Captain has a number of F/O who have placed him on their NoFly list, and everyone knows to be on egg shells around him.

This is garbage! I don't know the chap, but the first two solid statements are sheer gossip and I would say 100% unsubstantiated, bearing no truth whatsoever. So I am reluctant to believe the rest of this character assassination. I have flown with people of similar bad reputation- I never knew of them killing anybody. They got where they did by proving something. He is almost certainly grounded pending review of his decisions- a natural state of affairs for the commander of an aircraft involved in a situation that requires further investigation. Unfortunately some people cannot see this is one of the responsibilities that comes with command.

Lateonarrival- don't overdo the respect! One of those got himself sacked for extraordinary reasons and is unemployed, another abrogates his command responsibilities with some weird 'I am one of you, I am not your Boss!' mission statement.

We will eventually find out what the outcome of the investigation is. I find it dreadful the Pprune courts martial board convenes and find a guilty vote so easily based on very limited (and biased) alleged eyewitness accounts whilst the commander is still having his case investigated. Shame on some of you 'quick draw' judges! I hope similar impatience is shown to you one day. It really is for United management to decide, not some public Roman amphitheatre spectacle of idiotic public holding their thumbs up and down as the instant urge takes them. This person is facing unpleasant accusations, and it seems his main cross to bear is his alleged unpopularity with the cabin crew!

[lomapaseo]

Fellow Pruners I am sick and tired of personalities being assigned to posters by name. Every time you do that it engenders a personal attack and rebuttal not conducive to a discussion by a broader audience (nobody wants to be painted by the same brush with nails in it).

Stick to the multiple issues and keep it simple if all you're doing is expressing a different opinion or supporting same.

Damn I think we ought to have a poll on these kind of threads after the 3rd page of issues and be done with it


OK moderators delete this and we'll go on

[Rainboe]

Well while post 364 stands- I didn't go nuclear first! The last paragraph is actually wrong, but it is not anybody's business anyway.
Fact remains, the poster got himself canned, and is no longer in the industry anyway. With great relief from the pilots he flew with.

[kilomikedelta]

Civil aviation in the 21st century

Its seems that the conflicts inherent in this thread reflect those of the recent transition to a new millennium. The feudal attitudes in public administration ("I'm the decider" - by one who was not a very good pilot), medicine (doctors writing "orders" for other health professionals) - the military I won't touch, they require decades - are understood by most professional scholars and practitioners to be antiquated and counterproductive. I have never been the captain of an aircraft (although I have dealt with the detritus of misadventure by one). I do have the experience of being the responsible individual of a trauma centre in the early 1980's and found that it was much more efficient if we all understood that we worked as a team. I can assure everyone that the volume of the codspiece contents bears no relation to professional competence.

[Dani]

Rainboe, don't you think that you're not very balanced when you say in every post that all arguments against the UAL captain are unsubstantiated, while every little argument supporting him you state as truth?

I think we have some very strong signs - if not evidence - that most probably the captain it up greatly. It's like in every evidence trial (not court martial): If we don't find the smoking gun, we stick to the most probable order of events. It also doesn't help if you ridicule some witnesses, even if they are angry. (Of course they are!) You wouldn't make a great judge.

It's like in every other thread about incidents and accidents where we crossed our swords: Put back your sword and take Occam's razor, and you will find the solution. It's pretty sure that the captain was to blame.

If you still cannot agree (I guess it's your nature), I gladly agree on a bet about every sum or good you want. But I won in the THY/AMS thread, in the Hudson case and surely in the AF thread. Why? Occam's razor is a sharp tool!

btw it's useless to attack me. Just accept the bet or not, then we can pause until the facts are here.

Until then,
Dani

[SaturnV]

epc, the narratives appearing on other forums are based on or derived from the several accounts that have appeared here and/or elsewhere, which is basically giving the purser's side of the story.

There are several posts in another pilots forum by an individual identified as a 777 FO who suggests that the captain was hired by United in the Spring of '85 because he was 'current and qualified and went to work at a time of labor unrest', i.e., a union scab, and declares that the captain has a long history of "dreadful" behavior.

This might explain why there has been no postings by United pilots supporting the captain, or rebutting the accounts by the cabin crew.

[aviator]

This might explain why there has been no postings by United pilots supporting the captain, or rebutting the accounts by the cabin crew.

Bingo

A lot can be learned from what is not said....

[cessnapuppy]

@SaturnV

Or it may be that UA pilots have more sense than cabin crew and wont publicly post anything, anywhere in a situation where litigation may be pending??

[Flying Lawyer]

virginblue

….. this will probably end up in a court of law with the captain and the airline fighting over the termination of his contract. The one who will be calling the shots then is a judge - someone who may have never seen a cockpit from the inside or even flown. So just sit back, close your eyes for a moment and try to imagine how a judge as a layman in aviation matters will rule …..

I have no idea how the judge would rule, but I do know this: The judge would want a great deal more information before coming to a conclusion - including the captain’s side of the story. (As Rainboe has sensibly been urging.)

A judge reading this thread would be amazed at the way some posters condemn the captain on so little information, especially without knowing his side of the story, and surprised that those who have never operated an airliner express an opinion at all. (Unless the judge had been reading PPRuNe for years and had seen it happen many times before.)
“The judge may have never seen a cockpit from the inside or even flown.”
True, and would probably have no expertise in the operation of airliners. That's why the parties would probably call expert evidence from people who have. ie Experienced airline captains.
Neither side’s lawyers (unless they were spectacularly incompetent) would attach any weight to the opinion of someone who wasn’t and never had been a professional airline pilot and based his/her opinion upon being a frequent traveller, or having managerial experience in some other field or holding a PPL.

One Outsider

The monday morning quarterback second guessers, who infest every thread around here with their insistence on commenting on everything they have no experience, insight, understanding or knowledge of, needs to be told they are just that.

Harsh, but fair comment.
I too wish that, when aviation matters involving specialist knowledge and expertise are being discussed, those who have neither would just read and learn from the various opinions offered by those who have. It wouldn't then be necessary to wade through the chaff to get to the wheat.

Dani
I’m not an airline pilot so I wouldn’t presume to challenge your earlier post about how an airliner should be commanded (forgive me for using that word) but I do wonder if, upon reflection, you might think your most recent post is perhaps a little childish?

If you still cannot agree (I guess it's your nature), I gladly agree on a bet about every sum or good you want. But I won in the THY/AMS thread ………

Well done, if you did (Congratulations!), but that doesn’t detract from the force of what Rainboe is arguing here.

You wouldn't make a great judge.

With respect, based upon your exchanges with him in this thread, Rainboe would make a better judge than you. Perhaps you think judges jump to conclusions based on limited and untested information/without hearing both sides and are ‘great' judges if they turn out to be correct. (Wrong.)


.

[DownIn3Green]

Saturn 5...."labor unrest" pilot or not, (and I certainally get your drift) should have no bearing in this context....He was eitheir qualified or not....as you said, that was 1985, this is 2009....

Do the math....24 yrs ago who knows what his situation was, but if he was a "direct hire" Capt during "labor unrest" and is still with the Company...he must be the "King T#rd on the ****epile+...

Call me wrong, but when I buy a ticket on an airline, I don't care who is flying, "labor unrest" crew or not...

Irrationational decisions, however, would greatly concern me....

BTW...I worked for EAL before and after...

Guess I'm a "labor unrest" pilot as well...

You have to be there to make a judgement...my dice are in my hand until all the facts are known....

[p51guy]

You scabbed? If so you deserve no respect at all.