United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser

[sharksandwich]

Generosity

I have read these posts with interest.
We do not know why the captain had been on extended sick leave.
We know he has been relieved of command since, but do not know why, or for how long.
Why not cut the chap some slack?
There but for the grace.....

[parabellum]

I read on a previous post the captain was on sick leave after knee surgery, didn't I?

L2FP - Great post!

[Union Jack]

Offered purely as punctuation in this fascinating exchange of opposing views, and apologies if it has already been mentioned without me spotting it. Surely it is possible that the reason for the so-called "delay" (not the decision to do so) of five to six hours in offloading the Purser was to ensure that she was safely landed at the first US airport that was more or less en route, and with the prospect of a quick onward flight to ORD, rather than leaving her stranded at a foreign airport without proper back-up?

Jack

PS I'm too scared to offer a view on the decision itself, even though I have one - and, yes, it's based on command experience!

[BOAC]

A very possible reason, Jack, but it kind of knocks out the '600mph death machine drama queens', no? I would have thought that having flooged all that way, a little more with the purser in leg irons would not have been a problem?

[FrequentSLF]

I think 411A, Rainboe and others on the same wave length should read carefully the BOAC post.
Unless you want to discredit him as factual or a lier, those words on the last paragraph should make you think quite a lot...they made me think!
BOAC
I believe that was the most sensible post on this thread
FSLF

[Cacophonix]

with the purser in leg irons

Don't give some of these Captains ideas. A number of them are clearly an ILS or two short of a landing.

[Dr Brian Evans]

For instant deletion -

Perhaps the Captain had also been in leg irons some time back - hence the sick leave for his knee.

Have we stumbled upon secret UA corporate culture ?

Brian

[MU3001A]

Offered purely as punctuation in this fascinating exchange of opposing views, and apologies if it has already been mentioned without me spotting it. Surely it is possible that the reason for the so-called "delay" (not the decision to do so) of five to six hours in offloading the Purser was to ensure that she was safely landed at the first US airport that was more or less en route, and with the prospect of a quick onward flight to ORD, rather than leaving her stranded at a foreign airport without proper back-up?

Well that kind of consideration sorta undermines any 'imminent security threat' rationale used to justify offloading her doesn't it? Which brings us back to our self styled Queeg deciding to institute summary punishment for some perceived slight, with no consideration for the disruption caused to pax, UAL or anyone else involved. And, he had 5 hours to calm down and talk himself out of it, yet still went ahead with it!

No way to manage a crew or run an airline.

Just my 0.02c

[Ancient Observer]

Lack of "leadership" skills

I'm afraid that BOAC is correct. There is a distinct lack of leadership skills and leadership training in the Aviation sector compared to other sectors that I've worked in. Even where such training is on offer, some of the Nigels/Ruperts are unable to learn from it.
I have no idea whether or not that applied in this case.

[eliptic]

BOAC


Finally, i wounder why the H! Rainboe, 411...not apply for the carrot cargo flights instead of winning about how bad all SLF and F/A idiots are.

Reading the Cargo forum they have all time to both chit chat and play cards on 600mph flight,AND they have NO other souls to get upset on,, just dead non argumentative carrots

In the discussed case it is proved in my mind,, either are the Captain crazy, the Purser or even both, how does that PR look for the UA?

[sharksandwich]

mu300qa

Well that kind of consideration sorta undermines any 'imminent security threat' rationale used to justify offloading her doesn't it? Which brings us back to our self styled Queeg deciding to institute summary punishment for some perceived slight, with no consideration for the disruption caused to pax, UAL or anyone else involved. And, he had 5 hours to calm down and talk himself out of it, yet still went ahead with it!

No way to manage a crew or run an airline.

Just my 0.02c

No, it is not the way to manage a crew.
Going back to past posters, I have personally managed a section of men going into harms way.
They will obey you,but obey you better,if they trust you to be first.
I believe many Pilot's have little regard for leadership qualities, because they are not taught it.
I thought Tereriffe brought this to the forefront.

[RatherBeFlying]

This Captain has a number of F/O who have placed him on their NoFly list

The last multi-national corporation I worked for (with the usual deep-seated inherent institutional foibles) had an annual Employee Satisfaction Survey where questions were asked of your immediate boss' effectiveness, fairness etc. and you were invited to make narrative comments. The survey was returned directly to the survey firm where the responses were anonymised. Any boss with six or more reports saw the anonymised responses. If his subordinates were unhappy, his boss would require him to make a plan to improve in the eyes of his subordinates by the next survey. Bosses with consistently poor survey results did not climb the career ladder.

I have myself been subjected to student surveys when I was teaching. Yes, I could not please everybody and there were some things for me to work on. My management and students saw that I took their concerns seriously.

I would not take it as untoward that a Captain had a small number on FOs on his "No Fly" list as there will be the inevitable personal incompatibilities. When that "No Fly" list gets past a certain percentage, management needs to inquire more deeply.

[MU3001A]

Tereriffe

Probably a spelling error, but an apt description none the less.

Perhaps it's time to institute training for captains in how to manage other personnel on the flight who work outside the cockpit and some rules of the road about interacting with co-workers under your authority. I'm sure FA's get some instruction during their training about how to interact with flight crew but not apparently, flight crew themselves?

[virginblue]

Offered purely as punctuation in this fascinating exchange of opposing views, and apologies if it has already been mentioned without me spotting it. Surely it is possible that the reason for the so-called "delay" (not the decision to do so) of five to six hours in offloading the Purser was to ensure that she was safely landed at the first US airport that was more or less en route, and with the prospect of a quick onward flight to ORD, rather than leaving her stranded at a foreign airport without proper back-up?

To pick an airport for a diversion by considering that someone who is a threat to the safe operation of an aircraft might get stranded and inconvenienced at a foreign airport if off-loaded would demonstrate, as I said earlier, poor decision-making, nothing else. A threat is a threat is a threat.

If the CA was concerned about inconveniencing anyone, I find it more likely that he was concerned about his own fate. Off-loading the purser could easily have resulted in some sort of mutiny by the rest of crew (BoF said earlier in this thread that the purser had to talk the remaining cabin crew into continuing the flight for the sake of the passengers) - and being deserted by your crew in Miami is probably less annyoing than getting stranded at Salvador da Bahia.

Waiting for 5 hours, the captain obviously was not addressing a true risk, but held his own sort of court martial - instead of reporting the purser for insubordinance or demoting her on the spot. As I said earlier, all well within his authority, but probably sufficiently poor decision-making to cost him his job.

[FrequentSLF]

If the CA was concerned about inconveniencing anyone, I find it more likely that he was concerned about his own fate. Off-loading the purser could easily have resulted in some sort of mutiny by the rest of crew (BoF said earlier in this thread that the purser had to talk the remaining cabin crew into continuing the flight for the sake of the passengers) - and being deserted by your crew in Miami is probably less annyoing than getting stranded at Salvador da Bahia.

Wow...that is really stretching the reality. You do not off load someone because you afraid of mutiny...what kind of situation will be an emergency more that a possible mutiny?
My God...where do we stop? We are now creating excuses for a mutiny just to justify the actions? All of this based on allegations? Where will you go if those allegations will be proven?
FSLF

[Rainboe]

Did airline management have any input to the decision or did the captain go completely rogue. A scary thought indeed, a rogue captain full of his own self importance and seemingly oblivious of or indifferent to the impact his decision would have on others, in charge of a 767 hurtling through the air at 600 mph. Sure he has the right and the sole decision making authority when and where to divert the flight under his command, but he better have a damn good reason for doing so.

Well the Captain is getting a bad press (again). Let me point out that he sat and considered what to do for many hours. Whatever his thought process, he evidently decided it was not a safe operation to continue, and elected to land (safely) and 'remove' what he considered to be the problem. I'm looking for 'rogue' for someone who landed safely and continued safely? Evidently it worked for him because he continued with the rest of the crew who were evidently confident enough in him to continue, until they apparently got to destination where they suddenly reconsidered their opinions and decided he apparently had to be slated. Very, very strange. By his action in recognising that it was probably not (for him and his own mind) a safe course of action to continue, one could say his decision was justified. It is not so cut and dried as to 'he had a mental blowout and should be, and has been dismissed'. I would be very surprised to find he has been dismissed. As I pointed out earlier, any employee may expect to be suspended with pay whilst decisions are reviewed.

BOAC has chosen to publicise an irrelevant incident where a diversion was not available at 51N30W- exactly mid point between Newfoundland, Shannon, Keflavik and Santa Maria. This was completed supported by Flight Management following (yes)- a suspension. What are we to say about a captain who is under enforced early 'retirement' (without option) for a rather daft and bizarre action? I'd probably say 'Good decision making there mate! Perhaps 600mph decision making was 500mph too fast for you?' Strangely, things have never looked up better since! Don't come back.

[FrequentSLF]

Rainboe

considered what to do for many hours. Whatever his thought process, he evidently decided it was not a safe operation to continue, and elected to land (safely) and 'remove' what he considered to be the problem.

Perhaps 600mph decision making was 500mph too fast for you?'

Would you be so kind to explain why the first decision took about 5 hours when he was trained to make a decision in a split second (at 600 mph, or even slower at 500 mph).

The above quotes are from your same post!

FSLF

[Cacophonix]

@SLF

There is an extremely nasty edge to these posts. I'd keep well out of it.

[Rainboe]

Frequent SLF- no I wouldn't thank you! It's not for me to explain, just to point out that it is not so clear cut as posters are trying to make out. A good lawyer will take his cause very well if it comes to a fight

Perhaps if the mods would remove BOACs nasty personal comments, the nastiness will go away? But I can respond to it very well if mud is being flung at me over an unfortunate incident not of my making, and considering the accuser who is every bit as bizarre as this incident is shaping up to be!

[FrequentSLF]

But I can respond to it very well if mud is being flung at me over an unfortunate incident not of my making, and considering the accuser who is every bit as bizarre as this incident is shaping up to be

That is an interesting statement...
I found your post of utmost interest, but sometimes you give away your judgement just to protect the category. Note that most of the guys here are not pointing any finger to the category...however seems (at lest to me) that anytime that someone is criticizing a pilot you came on his/her defense...while a few post before you have stated the same argument
FSLF