United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser

[Cacophonix]

Guys, don't get involved with 411A, he spreads foul ideas for years. This is not the first - and it wont be the last - thread he demonstrates his inability of understanding modern aviation.

You are right. Amen to the new spirit of professional aviation. With respect to you guys and girls, cabin and flying.

[Rainboe]

And you sir, have absolutely no idea whatsoever of the command and responsibility involved in taking hundreds of men into harm's way. No idea at all. The underlining notion here involves command and responsibility. To a lesser degree: leadership.

ChrisVJ and RGBock1, all the command theory is great and makes a lot of sense. However, sorry to disappoint you, but at 600mph, there is no time to discuss or question what the Captain wants (within a large band of reason). You can apply all the theories of 'good commanders' and the rest of it, but it ends behind the flight deck door, like it or not. At almost 10 miles a minute, I am not explaining and very often not even asking opinions (I will- of all the crew only- when there is time!)- it is not a luxury we have. 411A is indeed perhaps the longest standing and most experienced airline pilot of the first order that you will ever hear on this board. As one of the other more experienced members, I would prefer no other to entrust my life to anywhere near as much! That doesn't mean we have to like him because even I find his opinions sometimes jar, but always, they are right, brutal, but right. And he's right here! Right here!

So thanks for all the philosophy, but we ain't got time. And as for passenger opinions? They can stay right behind that door! We are entrusted with shifting their carcases with safety from A to B, maintaining as much comfort as we can. what their opinions are of any aspect of the operation is for Customer Services, not me in front of that door. I neither listen nor desire to know that part of the operation. They pay the airline for me to transport them, not to foist their opinions down the crew or the staffs' throats. Sit there, STFU and let us get on with the job, because 400 voices trying to make their feelings known at 600mph is untenable. So NOBODY claim because you are paying $50 for your seat, you have a voice I want to listen to! I can't, and no passenger can preach to us what they think airline captains should do or how they should behave.

That is why these sudden instant CRM experts and their opinions in this thread are unwelcome. Until you've been there and had the responsibility, I'm sorry, but you know nothing, and your opinions are valueless. why avionics engineers and members of the public think they can come here and preach to us and question our ethics and values and give us lessons is one of life's little mysteries! Brutal, but nobody seems to understand or take the point! People spend years learning this stuff- why do others think they have it at their fingertips enough to be able to give us their opinions? Purrlease!

Dani, your views are downright damaging to yourself. I can't believe some of the weirdness you are coming up with. I will tell you straight- I would rather 411A flew me than anybody else (myself included!). And certainly not your style operation!

[parabellum]

I believe the stark reality is that being in command of a public transport aircraft, like a B767, is one of the few jobs that one really has to be there and have done to fully understand it, all the theory in the world may not always help. When flying we are, as humans, outside our natural earthbound environment and this effects people in different ways and requires solid training and practice to overcome, again, you have to have been there and done that to fully appreciate this phenomena.

No where does the above show itself more than in the simulator when a first officer is doing his first command training. Flying from the other seat is no problem, the systems are all the same as are the procedures but the mental transition is the hard part, finally realising that everyone is looking at you and you are the final decision maker. Some handle it well, others don't and need a second go, some don't ever make it.

Regarding this particular incident I reserve my opinion until, if ever, both sides of the story are public knowledge.

[DownIn3Green]

Para...

The most intelligent post of the entire thread....Period...Nice Job and great insight....

Dani...BTW...411A may be beyond "your" concept of "modern aviation", but without him and many, many others like him (E.K. Gann and Dick Merrill come to mind) you wouldn't be where you are today (if in fact you are anywhere)...

Read some Robert Serling and learn about "Kimes, White, Caroll and Duescher", or soak in some "From The Captain To The Colonel", or "Wings Of Man", or even "Probable Cause" (the story of the L-188 Electra) and then try to enter a pissing contest w/ 411A or anyone else her who knows what "Command Authority" is all about...

[GreenEyedTraveler]

It is a good thing Command is not a democracy. This thread is a case in point. I know this company well, I do not know the individuals.

Someone, a person who has extensive experience and confidence, is chosen to command a carriage, a jet transport. He has ultimate authority, because of said experience; it has been proven over time. Any individual who makes a display of purposeful disrespect to this person is endangering the purpose for which this person was chosen to lead. Disrespect seems insignificant to some, I will tell you it is a matter of life and death.

People in danger are afraid, and look for a leader to lead them to safety.
Confidence inspires self-confidence in those who are fearful. Undermining authority is insidious and can be lethal. This may be off thread, because in all honesty I don't know a thing about this flight. But it is my concept of leadership, and of the threat to all when it is gratuitously challenged.

Three words:

General Robert McNamara

'nuff said.

[GreenEyedTraveler]

Lets face facts here.
Amateurs, and this includes SLF, actually have positively no idea whatsoever of the operation, and especially the Command of, a civil jet airliner, so....all of their opinions, thoughts, and diatribe is totally without merit, whether they think so, or not.
These folks will go on posting their nonsence, of course, however it will be totally ignored by the airline professionals on ths board.

"totally ignored"?

Yet, you keep responding. (oh, btw - that's a "fact" )

[bugg smasher]

The enormity of airliner command responsibility is not readily evident, as are the most stringent of personal and professional requirements imposed as a result, to those who have not found their way, strived to overcome personal setbacks, or otherwise fought hugely to achieve the position. The odds are very much against many who try. Once there, paradoxically, that existential weight, once fully understood, is something in my opinion very few would willingly carry.


Where this captain is concerned, anomalies do happen, aviation is no different in this respect, perhaps best left to the corporate spin masters that must, by necessity, deal with such annoyances.

[Luvs2FlyPurser]

What is the real issue here? RESPECT

I am a Flight Attendant who would prefer to be a stewardess, because they had all the glamour. The role of flight attendant has changed, but there is always a minimum of 2 of you up there. Now we do double the work with half the crew. Those were the days when the Captains & F/O were courteous & didn't demand respect, they were respected due to their actions and their attitudes. This unfortunatly is not unique to the airline industry, it has alas made it's way into many aspects of society. Pilots, mechanics, ramp, Customer Service & cabin crew were respectful and considerate to each other & to the people who were there for a service which they paid for. Now we are constantly standing at the front of aircraft & trying to say hello as harried PAX roll over our feet with their "imitation" TravelPro while they hit us with the bag they are slinging over their shoulder & talking on their phone. Then as they proceed to roll down the aisle bumping every other person's head with their bag, they get to the first available bin, shove their bag in half-way, look around to see if anyone notices that it won't fit & try to slink away to their seat 20 rows away with the empty bin above their seat. Yet there is always someone who says to me, "thank you for making that guy move his bag to his seat". Humanity has yet to fail me. Perhaps I should be more jaded.

My biggest champions have been my fellow crew. I always have a water bottle on each pilot's seat, & gen decs & crew decs on the captain's seat. There is always a call to the front before I start my service to ensure their needs are met before I get into the critical part of my service, and I follow the break with an estimate of how long I expect to be in a critical phase of flight for me and my crew. As cabin crew we can eat, drink & pee at our leisure. Our pilot's post 9/11 cannot. If I think it's time for coffee or a bathroom break, I think of you first. I hear F/A's say why do the pilots always call right when I'm ready to start eating my crew meal? Don't they know I've been working all this time & I haven't even had a chance to eat!?! Guess what? NO they don't!! They have been locked in a cubicle. A quick phone call "Hey guys I wanted to check on you to see if you need anything before I sit down & eat my crew meal" works wonders. I get an 18000 ding to tell me when critical phases of flights are for the pilots. Consider a courtesy call to the pilots as an 18000 ding.

My point is, we all need to be kinder to everyone & be more considerate to all no matter what sense of importance we feel we have.

On that note, the Captain on this flight has had a long history of cancelling flights & causing delays. Customer Service knows when they see his name on the crew dec it's a 50/50 chance the flight will not go, or will go the next day. This Captain has a number of F/O who have placed him on their NoFly list, and everyone knows to be on egg shells around him. Yes, I have flown with him, no I am not a dinousaur (nor do I hope to be called one even when I'm 60 & still flying ) Sorry, I have a wonderful husband who makes great money, but I really love what I do! I do love the flying & have fun with my PAX (I even married one)

I know the Purser & she is well respected by all and I am not surprised that the crew & F/O's backed her. We are taught for security purposes to minimize the number of times the door is opened and the amount of time the door is opened. It is not unheard of for the pilots to ask for us to slip things under the door because they do understand the time it involves to set up the necessary barriers & gather crew to open the door. We jokingly refer to it as the ATM. (Change for Duty Free & drinks) Perhaps we are overly cautious here at United, but for us it is difficult to put the memory of 9/11 behind us. Those of you who champion the youth & beauty of asian carriers forget we are the ones who were in the trenches when the world changed.

[grumpyoldgeek]

Having been in middle management with a top international firm, I have dealt with many issues with staff over the years. If you're in charge/the boss you get respect and obedience from managing your staff not bossing them. If there is an issue, you pull that person aside and deal with it or schedule an appointment with HR if it merits it. You do not start a row in front of other staff or suddenly call an event off, just because you feel that your authority has been questioned, you get through the event and deal with it after.

Absolutely non sequitur.

Here's a small list of activities where the boss is the boss and any lawful order must be carried out quickly and without question:

1. Military
2. Ship at sea
3. Aircraft in service
4. Film or video production shoot

Now there's nothing wrong with questioning an order, either to the boss or up the chain of command after you carry it out, but in all cases, questions at the time of the order will put you in a world of hurt.

There are plainly two issues here. Was the purser insubordinate? Did the captain abuse his authority by diverting and ejecting her? I don't know the answers.

[Crayon]

I'll bite.

411A and Rainboe be right, so is Juud. I do not know all the facts either but if the captan decided to divert, there must have been a reason. He has the right to do so. Given.

Questioning this right? take it with the allmighty(ies) that set that rule.
In the mean time; accept and oblige.

[stilton]

Film or video production shot

[Crayon]

You pick. Get some popcorn. As seen, you'll need it stilton.

[MU3001A]

There are plainly two issues here. Was the purser insubordinate? Did the captain abuse his authority by diverting and ejecting her? I don't know the answers.

Three issues.

Assuming the particulars of the incident as previously laid out in this thread are reasonably accurate, notwithstanding we haven't heard and are unlikely to hear from the captain or the other flight crew members. Is someone who would divert a flight to offload a member of the cabin crew over such a petty and insignificant matter the kind of fit and proper person to be holding such a position of responsibility?

My vote would be no and I suspect his employer feels the same way.

The Captain has been removed from the remainder of his flying schedule. The Purser who was removed, has NOT been removed from the remainder of her flying schedule.

Read it and weep dinosaurs.

[7x7]

A few have alluded to this already, but in my opinion, whether he was right or wrong, if the investigation results in the captain getting shafted, (as some are saying he already has been) as the result of the diversion, what's really going to interesting is the attitude of some (stress 'some') of the blue rinse UA FAs with 'attitoode' to any command they don't like from any captain in the future.

I think the most insightful post in all 17 pages of this thread was Judd's - a flight attendant.

[Crayon]

MU3001A, all you can do is "copy/paste" someone's post giving you the "scoop" (and feed your agenda). Fine.
Ask yourself this: would the driver be over the flying hours limit had he continued to ORD after the delay?

Do you know if he was/has been suspended all together from any other flights?

Bet you, he is flying souls now.

[MU3001A]

MU3001A, all you can do is "copy/paste" someone's post giving you the "scoop" (and feed your agenda). Fine.

I can show you how to do it if you like.

Ask yourself this: would the driver be over the flying hours limit had he continued to ORD after the delay?

He did continue the flight 1 hour later, so I assume not. The diversion probably added no more than 30 minutes to his total flight time for the trip which would not have exceeded the 12 hour limit of 121.483.

Do you know if he was/has been suspended all together from any other flights?

No idea, all I have to go on is what I have read here and in the news. I have no inside information and just offer my opinion for what it's worth based on accepting that information others have provided is reasonably close to the truth.

Bet you, he is flying souls now.

Doubt it.

Assuming the particulars of the incident as previously laid out in this thread are reasonably accurate, notwithstanding we haven't heard from and are unlikely to hear from the captain or the other flight crew members. Is someone who would divert a flight to offload a member of the cabin crew over such a petty and insignificant matter the kind of fit and proper person to be holding such a position of responsibility as captain of a flag carrier? Did he think to check or did he even care how many passengers might be inconvenienced by missing their connections because of his decision to divert? Did airline management have any input to the decision or did the captain go completely rogue. A scary thought indeed, a rogue captain full of his own self importance and seemingly oblivious of or indifferent to the impact his decision would have on others, in charge of a 767 hurtling through the air at 600 mph. Sure he has the right and the sole decision making authority when and where to divert the flight under his command, but he better have a damn good reason for doing so.

My vote would be no and I suspect his employer feels the same way.

[20driver]

Future attitude issues?

This case is clearly so unique and bizarre that I really doubt it will have any impact on anything.
For a start we still don't know what happened. There are versions posted but nothing confirmed. (I do not accuse anyone of lying, I just prefer to get corroboration) I suspect we will never know. United clearly is not going to say anything publicly. Have they even acknowledged the event? There may be something in crew channels eventually and I am sure the insiders will figure out something from the rosters. This does not seem to qualify as an incident or an accident so there will be no FAA action.

If, and that is an if, the FAA did pull a license I am not sure that they have to provide a public explanation, or even a notice. Short of a lawsuit by the impacted party we will have no idea what the FAA has done with this.

End of the day, in the air the captain calls the shots. How the captain does their job is between him (her) and the company. No one else gets a vote. The punters, I'm one often enough, you can pay your money or go elsewhere. There is no way in hell I will get on a plane where the passengers get to vote on how it is flown, what CRM is in vogue etc.

Like any job if you take a course of action that costs the company money or unwanted publicity you better be able to explain why you did it. Many a career has ended on the rocks because the boss was not amused.

20driver

[Latearrival]

No tolerance....and no time?

Parabellum, it’s hard to disagree with anything you said so eloquently and without putting anyone down. The discussion about the original incident probably would have been laid to rest long ago, but for the tone of some posters—on both sides of the issue.

There is one last thing I want to say about something that is particularly difficult to understand. To some of the Captains and F/O's....I can understand your frustration and distain for those who don’t know your world and dare to comment. But not only do you disparage posters who aren’t pilots, you also disparage pilots who disagree with you, like Dani. His management style obviously works for him and doesn’t jeopardize safety. Surely there should be some tolerance for alternate styles of crew management. And is the ATCO who expressed his concerns, completely ignorant of the realities behind the cockpit door and therefore guilty of another meaningless opinion? I’d hope not.

The way several of you have chosen to state your case seems to reflect an attitude of “no one except me knows anything” and “A Captain is always beyond reproach (unless he happens to disagree with me)” You come across as people whose minds are not only closed, but nailed shut. Sadly, I think many would agree that doesn’t reflect well on your profession. And some of those might even be your peers.

There is another thing that is hard to understand……“At 600mph, there is no time for a discussion and a mutual hug. It only works when one person is in charge and his commands are obeyed without a discussion every time.” Anyone but an idiot realizes that there are lots of times when “do it now” (no questions asked) is essential to guaranteeing the safety of all aboard. However, no one has suggested there was an immediate threat to safety in this case. To suggest that "discussion" or attempting to clear the air with the "offender" wasn't an option because there was no time for it (especially with two First Officers on board) on a lengthy flight, seems to be just blindly defending "one of yours" and is ludicrous. Given similar situations, I'm sure there have been Captains who made the time to deal with staff problems, however they saw fit and resolved them without diverting. Why this particular Captain was unable or unwilling to do that, who knows?

Finally, remember that some SLF do know and may even be related to pilots, and that provides some insights. (It has even been rumoured that occasionally on the flight deck there is time for conversations not related to a particular flight) So, we are aware of some of what goes on in the inner sanctum, even though we haven’t experienced it directly.

[MU3001A]

Like any job if you take a course of action that costs the company money or unwanted publicity you better be able to explain why you did it. Many a career has ended on the rocks because the boss was not amused.

To which I would add unwanted attention from government authorities and agencies and the prospect of a war between cabin crew and flight crew.

[Crayon]

MU3001A, seems you chose to play kids stuff. You will not drag me into it.

I guess I presented my view and so you did yours.
I still say, the skipper had the final say and chose to divert. His call and right. Part of a job.