United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser
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I have to say if I had been an FO on an aircraft, I would have seriously questioned the ability of a Captain to continue operating safely if he had got himself so wound up that he felt the need to divert to offload another crew member. It also seems incomprehensible to me that the airline allowed the Captain to continue operating- if there had been a incident on the subsequent flight caused by a seething Captain mulling over what had happened and the pending inquiry, I dread to think what the repercussions would have been for the airline!
I'm only a humble ATCO so you'll have to excuse me, but I have to say I find some of the opinions expressed by flight deck personnel on this thread shocking, to say the least.
I'm only a humble ATCO so you'll have to excuse me, but I have to say I find some of the opinions expressed by flight deck personnel on this thread shocking, to say the least.
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Beamender99-
I would never say that a Captain would not be able to manage as you have said. If I had any doubt, I would not fly.
People do not like being managed by bad managers, but you would follow a good leader anywhere!
I would never say that a Captain would not be able to manage as you have said. If I had any doubt, I would not fly.
People do not like being managed by bad managers, but you would follow a good leader anywhere!
Warning Toxic!
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Disgusted of Tunbridge
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Litebulbs, please get your logic sorted out! You said
So do you have any doubt the pilot has leadership skills or not? Because to say
is a contradiction. this thread is convoluted enough without people making contradictory statements! You evidently don't have confidence that leadership/management skills are adequately assessed at 'promotion to captain'-time!
Flying aeroplanes does not make you a good leader. I am reasonably sure that leadership is not a prime measure, when promoting a first officer to command. It would never have been in the job role. Hiding behind the law of the sky, does not promote good leadership skills.
In most other jobs, leaders are selected because of their leadership skills. This is true for cabin crew. is it the same for flight crew?
In most other jobs, leaders are selected because of their leadership skills. This is true for cabin crew. is it the same for flight crew?
I would never say that a Captain would not be able to manage as you have said. If I had any doubt, I would not fly.
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Rainboe,
If one does not know the pilot in question personally then one can make absolutely no valid judgment, at all, as to his leadership skills or lack thereof.
If one does not know the pilot in question personally then one can make absolutely no valid judgment, at all, as to his leadership skills or lack thereof.
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It is a good thing Command is not a democracy. This thread is a case in point. I know this company well, I do not know the individuals.
Someone, a person who has extensive experience and confidence, is chosen to command a carriage, a jet transport. He has ultimate authority, because of said experience; it has been proven over time. Any individual who makes a display of purposeful disrespect to this person is endangering the purpose for which this person was chosen to lead. Disrespect seems insignificant to some, I will tell you it is a matter of life and death.
People in danger are afraid, and look for a leader to lead them to safety.
Confidence inspires self-confidence in those who are fearful. Undermining authority is insidious and can be lethal. This may be off thread, because in all honesty I don't know a thing about this flight. But it is my concept of leadership, and of the threat to all when it is gratuitously challenged.
Someone, a person who has extensive experience and confidence, is chosen to command a carriage, a jet transport. He has ultimate authority, because of said experience; it has been proven over time. Any individual who makes a display of purposeful disrespect to this person is endangering the purpose for which this person was chosen to lead. Disrespect seems insignificant to some, I will tell you it is a matter of life and death.
People in danger are afraid, and look for a leader to lead them to safety.
Confidence inspires self-confidence in those who are fearful. Undermining authority is insidious and can be lethal. This may be off thread, because in all honesty I don't know a thing about this flight. But it is my concept of leadership, and of the threat to all when it is gratuitously challenged.
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Dart Herald quote:
There do not appear to be any missing numbers in the post sequence.
Unless I am going completely bonkers, I seem to remember what I considered to be an extremely astute post yesterday afternoon that seems to have been removed. IMHO it was so on the nail that I was tempted to comment as such but got distracted by other things.
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Will Fraser,
I'm sure this will be off the thread, sort of, but I understand where you are coming from as far as command, respect and leadership are concerned. Somewhat.
I have a different set of values for each of the above. I derived some of those values from my own upbringing, some from life experiences and some from combat experience leading other men. (United States Army 1st Ranger Battalion, 75th Infantry during Operation Urgent Fury on the island of Grenada - Oct-Dec 1983)
There are many aspects to the subject of command and leadership. Command is given, or earned. Command is sometimes learned, sometimes innate to the person in a command responsibility. And command sometimes is given to those who are not deserving of it. At all. Leadership, on the other hand is not usually a learned skill but is often a character trait indigenous to an individual. Command and leadership are not always two skills that go hand in hand seamlessly. One can have command but lack leadership skills. One can have leadership skills but have no command. Yes, those who are commanded must, in most cases, obey the LAWFUL orders
of those doing the commanding. However if I in a commanding position issue an order which can be deemed unlawful and puts at risk those who are being commanded, then that order MAY be called into question. As a leader I should have acquired the wisdom and skills to know that an order, based on a command and questioned by my subordinates may actually have a basis to be questioned. And I should know how to resolve the issue underlying the disconnected between the command and those being commanded without undue risk to all involved.
Hope this makes sense.
I'm sure this will be off the thread, sort of, but I understand where you are coming from as far as command, respect and leadership are concerned. Somewhat.
I have a different set of values for each of the above. I derived some of those values from my own upbringing, some from life experiences and some from combat experience leading other men. (United States Army 1st Ranger Battalion, 75th Infantry during Operation Urgent Fury on the island of Grenada - Oct-Dec 1983)
There are many aspects to the subject of command and leadership. Command is given, or earned. Command is sometimes learned, sometimes innate to the person in a command responsibility. And command sometimes is given to those who are not deserving of it. At all. Leadership, on the other hand is not usually a learned skill but is often a character trait indigenous to an individual. Command and leadership are not always two skills that go hand in hand seamlessly. One can have command but lack leadership skills. One can have leadership skills but have no command. Yes, those who are commanded must, in most cases, obey the LAWFUL orders
of those doing the commanding. However if I in a commanding position issue an order which can be deemed unlawful and puts at risk those who are being commanded, then that order MAY be called into question. As a leader I should have acquired the wisdom and skills to know that an order, based on a command and questioned by my subordinates may actually have a basis to be questioned. And I should know how to resolve the issue underlying the disconnected between the command and those being commanded without undue risk to all involved.
Hope this makes sense.
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purposeful disrespect ... Undermining authority ... gratuitously challenged.
Just saying.
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rgbrock1
I cannot disagree with any of your post, it is accurate and I subscribe to the beliefs expressed. Short of an unlawful command, any requests are a subtle form of command. There is a protocol in an uncharged environment.
If I may, and with no concrete knowledge of this incident, what appears to have happened is a challenge to heirarchy. Whether by misunderstanding, pride, or short temper, the fundamental chain cannot be compromised, it is as Juud has written: touchy Captain, deferent staff.
The touchier, the more respect is called for. This is not fair, it isn't agreeable, it isn't gentlemanly, and it may be mitigated at another time.
If on the same team, and Captain has drawn his sword, leave yours in its sheath. A challenge of any sort disrespects the entire crew.
I cannot disagree with any of your post, it is accurate and I subscribe to the beliefs expressed. Short of an unlawful command, any requests are a subtle form of command. There is a protocol in an uncharged environment.
If I may, and with no concrete knowledge of this incident, what appears to have happened is a challenge to heirarchy. Whether by misunderstanding, pride, or short temper, the fundamental chain cannot be compromised, it is as Juud has written: touchy Captain, deferent staff.
The touchier, the more respect is called for. This is not fair, it isn't agreeable, it isn't gentlemanly, and it may be mitigated at another time.
If on the same team, and Captain has drawn his sword, leave yours in its sheath. A challenge of any sort disrespects the entire crew.
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Lets face facts here.
Amateurs, and this includes SLF, actually have positively no idea whatsoever of the operation, and especially the Command of, a civil jet airliner, so....all of their opinions, thoughts, and diatribe is totally without merit, whether they think so, or not.
These folks will go on posting their nonsence, of course, however it will be totally ignored by the airline professionals on ths board.
IE: those in the back of the bus have no say in the matter, whatsoever.
Like it or not....and I expect many won't.
Tough
Amateurs, and this includes SLF, actually have positively no idea whatsoever of the operation, and especially the Command of, a civil jet airliner, so....all of their opinions, thoughts, and diatribe is totally without merit, whether they think so, or not.
These folks will go on posting their nonsence, of course, however it will be totally ignored by the airline professionals on ths board.
IE: those in the back of the bus have no say in the matter, whatsoever.
Like it or not....and I expect many won't.
Tough
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411A wrote:
Lets face facts here.
Amateurs, and this includes SLF, actually have positively no idea whatsoever of the operation, and especially the Command of, a civil jet airliner, so....all of their opinions, thoughts, and diatribe is totally without merit, whether they think so, or not.
These folks will go on posting their nonsence, of course, however it will be totally ignored by the airline professionals on ths board.
IE: those in the back of the bus have no say in the matter, whatsoever.
Like it or not....and I expect many won't.
Tough.>
And you sir, have absolutely no idea whatsoever of the command and responsibility involved in taking hundreds of men into harm's way. No idea at all. The underlining notion here involves command and responsibility. To a lesser degree: leadership.
Whether you're an aircraft captain on a flight, a military man leading men into combat, or a first responder leading others into a disaster zone, the underlining notions are still the same. To think otherwise underscores your inherent ignorance of the issues involved.
Lets face facts here.
Amateurs, and this includes SLF, actually have positively no idea whatsoever of the operation, and especially the Command of, a civil jet airliner, so....all of their opinions, thoughts, and diatribe is totally without merit, whether they think so, or not.
These folks will go on posting their nonsence, of course, however it will be totally ignored by the airline professionals on ths board.
IE: those in the back of the bus have no say in the matter, whatsoever.
Like it or not....and I expect many won't.
Tough.>
And you sir, have absolutely no idea whatsoever of the command and responsibility involved in taking hundreds of men into harm's way. No idea at all. The underlining notion here involves command and responsibility. To a lesser degree: leadership.
Whether you're an aircraft captain on a flight, a military man leading men into combat, or a first responder leading others into a disaster zone, the underlining notions are still the same. To think otherwise underscores your inherent ignorance of the issues involved.
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@rgbrock1
Some of the opinions espoused by some of the people here are pitched to rile the reasonable man.
I have a great deal of respect for the airline professionals. Sir, I have a great deal of respect for you.
The days of the Queegs, the Arnheiters... (continue as you will) are over. It will be painful for them. In a sense, tough.
MB
Some of the opinions espoused by some of the people here are pitched to rile the reasonable man.
I have a great deal of respect for the airline professionals. Sir, I have a great deal of respect for you.
The days of the Queegs, the Arnheiters... (continue as you will) are over. It will be painful for them. In a sense, tough.
MB
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411A,
I am not going to stoop down to your level and engage in an online pissing contest.
It would get me nowhere. However, I will add this. Under your profile it states
Airline Captain. Fine. However, if you are an airline captain in the U.S. then every time I fly and it happens to be the airline for which you work, then I am indirectly paying YOUR SALARY. With that in mind, I will continue to espouse my opinion
about any matter in which I deem fit.
If you don't like that. Tough.
I am not going to stoop down to your level and engage in an online pissing contest.
It would get me nowhere. However, I will add this. Under your profile it states
Airline Captain. Fine. However, if you are an airline captain in the U.S. then every time I fly and it happens to be the airline for which you work, then I am indirectly paying YOUR SALARY. With that in mind, I will continue to espouse my opinion
about any matter in which I deem fit.
If you don't like that. Tough.
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411A, are you an airline Captain with many years of experience in the job?
Please tell me you are not.
Because your comments on this thread have been invariably without merit for someone occupying such a position of responsibility.
Regards.
Please tell me you are not.
Because your comments on this thread have been invariably without merit for someone occupying such a position of responsibility.
Regards.
Have to agree with 411A here. Passengers are just that, while they are welcome to their opinions they are clueless when it comes to the actual operation of the Aircraft, the responsibilitys and authority of the Captain.
As to comparing that with leading men into battle, while you have my utmost respect for your service it's not even close to being the same thing.
On a different subject :
'A few years ago I attended a presentation by BA for wannabee pilots.
The question was "Who wants to be a pilot with BA?"
Lots of hands went up. The reply was :-
" Well we are not looking for pilots but are looking for those who can manage a multi £M piece of equipment, CC, passengers etc. We will then teach them to fly"
That made a few of them think! '
This is the kind of, to their minds clever management 'gotcha' thinking that is pointless and counterproductive.
What would they have said if no one put their hand up ,the presentation was for 'wannabee Pilots' wasn't it ! ?
Idiots...
As to comparing that with leading men into battle, while you have my utmost respect for your service it's not even close to being the same thing.
On a different subject :
'A few years ago I attended a presentation by BA for wannabee pilots.
The question was "Who wants to be a pilot with BA?"
Lots of hands went up. The reply was :-
" Well we are not looking for pilots but are looking for those who can manage a multi £M piece of equipment, CC, passengers etc. We will then teach them to fly"
That made a few of them think! '
This is the kind of, to their minds clever management 'gotcha' thinking that is pointless and counterproductive.
What would they have said if no one put their hand up ,the presentation was for 'wannabee Pilots' wasn't it ! ?
Idiots...
First, and with the greatest of respect for those I have admired and envied for forty years: The idea that because a person is not aircrew they may have no useful comment or opinion is really rather silly, especially in view of the avowed need for aircrew to be open minded thinking people. In a field of endeavour I joined just a few years ago (School Trustee,) it is exactly the lack of outsiders and consideration of their ideas that has lead to stultification of thought and failure to pursue simple and well proven ideas, in turn leading to stagnation and failure to improve academic results. Ironically many of the ideas we don't consider are those from the aviation industry, including the reporting of incidents without censure (unless appropriate,) safety management (the principle that all members should be considering results of their actions in a particular light,) recurrent training, check rides and even CRM!
In any such conversation there are always extremes and off the wall suggestions but it is not too hard to sort them. To characterise all such comment as worthless, however frustrating they may be, is to cast yourselves as arrogant and intolerant.
Second, to castigate both sides evenly: In a world where an experienced captain is a valuable asset to his company and the aviation industry and where the watchwords are retraining, help and support and where pilots come back from the depths of alcoholism, depression and other malaises, to be calling for this pilot to be ‘permanently removed,’ even before the evidence is in, is similarly arrogant and intolerant and not worthy of the members of this board, (though sometimes I wonder.)
Third and last; It seems that the very anonymity that allows us to join in discussion and contribute to all sorts of subjects that interest us without the retribution of a knuckle sandwich or even the face to face embarrassment of being taken down a peg or two in public is also the spur for some to express views that they would not dream of expressing in that face to face encounter and the increasing stridency adds nothing to the advance of the argument. This is even more apparent in political discussion that in the almost technical pages of PPRUNE. It would be an altogether more pleasant world if we would, perhaps, apply the test of “Would I say this to his face? Would I say it to the inspector? Would I say it to the judge?” before posting.
JMHO, of course.
In any such conversation there are always extremes and off the wall suggestions but it is not too hard to sort them. To characterise all such comment as worthless, however frustrating they may be, is to cast yourselves as arrogant and intolerant.
Second, to castigate both sides evenly: In a world where an experienced captain is a valuable asset to his company and the aviation industry and where the watchwords are retraining, help and support and where pilots come back from the depths of alcoholism, depression and other malaises, to be calling for this pilot to be ‘permanently removed,’ even before the evidence is in, is similarly arrogant and intolerant and not worthy of the members of this board, (though sometimes I wonder.)
Third and last; It seems that the very anonymity that allows us to join in discussion and contribute to all sorts of subjects that interest us without the retribution of a knuckle sandwich or even the face to face embarrassment of being taken down a peg or two in public is also the spur for some to express views that they would not dream of expressing in that face to face encounter and the increasing stridency adds nothing to the advance of the argument. This is even more apparent in political discussion that in the almost technical pages of PPRUNE. It would be an altogether more pleasant world if we would, perhaps, apply the test of “Would I say this to his face? Would I say it to the inspector? Would I say it to the judge?” before posting.
JMHO, of course.
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411A I think won this pissing contest if that is what you want to call it. Captains gather all the information they can in all aspects of flight and make decisions like a CEO does for a corporation. His responsibility is for the safe and efficient operation of his aircraft. He will be the man to explain why he did what he did in a situation. The cabin crew can offer suggestions but his decision is final. Democracy doesn't work very well in an aircraft where the majority rules. The captain has to justify all of his many decisions during his flight and seldom does the company question him. Occasionally if an FA writes up a report questioning you the chief will call to get your side. That is usually the end of the problem as it should be.
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Guys, don't get involved with 411A, he spreads foul ideas for years. This is not the first - and it wont be the last - thread he demonstrates his inability of understanding modern aviation.
Back to the topic: Leadership and command. Problem is, that those captains (who think they "own" the ship and its crew), don't know how hard it is to be a real good leader. They think, that they are born leader, since they are checked out after upgrading.
They have lived a good life in a major airline, sat on the right seat for 10 years or longer, waited for that moment it finally was their turn.
But they never had to lead outside of their job. As a pilot, everything is pretty much laid down in their books. There it says, that they can do whatever they deem necessary. But they have never understood that it is a big burden to lead. Look at Winston Churchill, Nelson Mandela, Abraham Lincoln etc aso. They lived for the job, and they sometimes died for it. Every day in their position to lead was a struggle. And they had to give everything to receive something from their subordinates. To be on top, they had to go down very low. And they were rewarded for it.
When I read some statements here in this thread, from some captains, when I hear the talk of "I can do everything necessary aboard my ship", I really have to smile, and I realize that they know nothing about real life. And it's not the first time I write this in this forum, but it is so true: I'm sooo glad that I don't have to fly with you!
Dani
Back to the topic: Leadership and command. Problem is, that those captains (who think they "own" the ship and its crew), don't know how hard it is to be a real good leader. They think, that they are born leader, since they are checked out after upgrading.
They have lived a good life in a major airline, sat on the right seat for 10 years or longer, waited for that moment it finally was their turn.
But they never had to lead outside of their job. As a pilot, everything is pretty much laid down in their books. There it says, that they can do whatever they deem necessary. But they have never understood that it is a big burden to lead. Look at Winston Churchill, Nelson Mandela, Abraham Lincoln etc aso. They lived for the job, and they sometimes died for it. Every day in their position to lead was a struggle. And they had to give everything to receive something from their subordinates. To be on top, they had to go down very low. And they were rewarded for it.
When I read some statements here in this thread, from some captains, when I hear the talk of "I can do everything necessary aboard my ship", I really have to smile, and I realize that they know nothing about real life. And it's not the first time I write this in this forum, but it is so true: I'm sooo glad that I don't have to fly with you!
Dani