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Old 1st Dec 2009, 08:36   #101 (permalink)
 
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Avient said that they would replace all 10 by 11 (original plan was 330), do you think they should reconcider that ?

"The State Civil Aviation Administration denied yesterday that it has banned all MD-11 cargo aircrafts from flying."

Last edited by Acid-drop; 1st Dec 2009 at 08:46.
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 09:50   #102 (permalink)
 
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Team work

Operating aircraft commercially requires a team of proficient professionals, both in the air and on the ground. We all rely on everyone to do their job properly. Some facts to consider.
It is not fair at this stage to speculate on the piloting abilities of the cockpit crew, let us wait for the CVR/FDR info.
This aircraft had been brought into service as a new type to the operator in a very short space of time, therefore the "on-the-job" experience was virtually zero.
The MD11F is a complicated aircraft to trim and load, with considerable differences to the DC10.
The American crew would have been used to slick, efficient dispatchers, relying on them to build and load the aircraft properly.
To quote a very well-used phrase "never ASSUME annything".
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 11:10   #103 (permalink)
 
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stilton opens his yap again and contributes less than nothing. What a surprise.
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 11:14   #104 (permalink)
 
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I wondered how long it would be before Stilton showed up. At this stage you have absolutely NO evidence whatsoever that the MD-11 is at fault with this one so until such a time that you do why don't you just shut the **** up.
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 11:40   #105 (permalink)
 
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Since some folks see fit to speculate on the performance of the crew at a time when zero information is available to say what actually occurred, let me add the following:

I have no idea what happened leaving ZSPD, but I know first hand that at least one of the crew involved had demonstrated the ability to handle problems at high speeds on takeoff. My one and only high speed RTO in an MD-11 took place in 2008 with one of the 3 deceased in the left seat (I was in the IRO chair). Departing Conakry (not the longest runway on a hot day...) at somewhere north of 100 knots the plane shuddered a bit and the engine fail lights illuminated. He called for and performed a flawless RTO.

That was the tail end of a great week in Jo'Burg and Ghana together that I will never forget so long as I live. RIP Bro.
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 12:01   #106 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
charter man: "The MD11F is a complicated aircraft to trim and load, with considerable differences to the DC10.
The American crew would have been used to slick, efficient dispatchers, relying on them to build and load the aircraft properly"
Have you ever been at Pudong airport? Besides Avient, UPS, FedEx, Alitalia Cargo, Lufthansa Cargo, Aeroflot, . . . there are other MD11F visitors, including China's own MD11F operators, all being properly serviced and loaded every day by well trained and experienced ramp crew.
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 12:32   #107 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Have you ever been at Pudong airport? Besides Avient, UPS, FedEx, Alitalia Cargo, Lufthansa Cargo, Aeroflot, . . . there are other MD11F visitors, including China's own MD11F operators, all being properly serviced and loaded every day by well trained and experienced ramp crew
Quite. That about covers it.

Apparently there must be fears about moving buffalo off the runway and getting bogged down in the paddy fields . . .
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 13:21   #108 (permalink)
 
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Well, I know that even the best loading crew can f*ck up from time to time. Iīve seen cargo loaded on the wrong aircraft and only discovered on pushback and I know of an incident with a very reputable airline, where the loading crew didnīt obey the instructions and loaded 8 tons of luggage into the rear cargo hold of an A300 instead of distributing it as per load sheet. The result was that the aircraft was extremely tail heavy, the pilots, believing the load sheet, only noticed during rotation, but through pure luck and airmanship managed to get the aircraft airborne and landed at the destination barely avoiding a tailstrike.
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 15:11   #109 (permalink)


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q100

Well said q100, i was on that aircraft with you at Conakry, i was the LM. The Bro acted in a totally proffesional manner and i for one was glad that he did what he had to do! As for some of the crap that is being dispersed on here do these people really not have a life?.
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 15:36   #110 (permalink)
 
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Charter man,
What a load of crap! The American crew would have been used to slick, efficient.....Like you, a Brit I assume, go back and insure the load after you checked thru the entire loadsheet, then when you have time check that the overseas territories are running up to speed.
Been to Shanghai many times on MD-11 and I assure you the loading staff is efficient and professional. Rather than interfering with them, I make sure my American ass is ready for the next departure.
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 15:42   #111 (permalink)
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MD11? Loaded too far forward, maybe. But never loaded too far back. She'll pop a wheelie way before things get dangerous.

Happened to a friend of mine on a quick turn in KSEA. The rest of the crew went in the office during the loading, but he stayed in the RFO seat to grab a quick snooze.

He said as he closed his eyes he was looking at the lights of the ramp and cargo facility. Fell asleep, woke up and looked out to the moon and stars. No one had tethered the nose. Thankfully the tug was hooked up so the towbar kept him from ending up all the way on the tail....
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 16:21   #112 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Well said q100, i was on that aircraft with you at Conakry, i was the LM. The Bro acted in a totally proffesional manner and i for one was glad that he did what he had to do! As for some of the crap that is being dispersed on here do these people really not have a life?.
That you KR? I'm pretty sure it was you with us that day....

I was very impressed both by the way you handled things (clueless ground crew, greedy "officials", stuck pallets, etc.) that day (I've had more enjoyable days...) and also by some of your recent replies on Avherald.com. Hope all's well with you these days and life after the G-Spot is treating you right.

And to answer your question, they do not.

T.
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 16:56   #113 (permalink)


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q100

Hi, it certainly is me, thanks for those words means a lot.. life sucks to be honest...despite what has happened am still trying to find another LM job but it all seems to be closed shop when so called mates are going to check things out for you, am working for handling agent at mo at LHR. Any ideas!!!!!!!
Bro gonna be missed sorely!
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 17:09   #114 (permalink)
 
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Huck, post #119:
[quote]MD11? Loaded too far forward, maybe. But never loaded too far back. She'll pop a wheelie way before things get dangerous.
[{quote]

I was just giving the aft loaded A300 as an example how even a normally excellent loading crew can f*ck up.
In any case, we donīt know yet enough facts about this accident to do anything except to speculate. But we can seperate total nonsense ideas from those which make some sense.
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 17:40   #115 (permalink)

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Quote:
so 'cargo shifting' is not and never will be an issue.
Well, it happened in Miami a few years ago: Cargo shifted on DC-8 just after take-off, it crashed and killed all 3 crew members.

Article: 3 Die in Fiery Crash of Cargo Plane - AP Online | HighBeam Research - FREE trial
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 18:20   #116 (permalink)
 
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Facts to consider

Wow guys - some raw nerves there.. I said they were facts to CONSIDER -not neccessarily what happened. My point is, never assume that everything is at is seems. If you have never checked the loading of the aircraft for yourself poina, you are either very lucky or very stupid.
If you always rely on others to have done their job perfectly, do not be surprised if one day you
A. Find the wrong load on the wrong aircraft (as I have)
B. Find the load has been loaded in completely the wrong order (as I have)
C. The load has not been checkweighed (as I have)
D. The shipper has lied about the weight and the handling agent hasn't checked (as I have)
E. The loadmaster has not checked the security of the load (as I have)
F. The loadsheet is completely wrong (as I have)
I have never been to Pudong, GlueBall, but I suspect it is pretty efficient in handling freighters so I am not pointing any fingers there, or suggesting they are "third world".
The fact is that the operator had very little experience of a new aircraft type, which is acknowledged by many contributors on this and other forums to be "challenging".
CM
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 18:33   #117 (permalink)
 
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Oh dear, sticks and stones



In any case killing the messenger will not change this Aircraft's continuing litany of disasters and miserable accident history.



When Fedex crashed in NRT earlier this year I said it would only be a matter of time before it happened again. Since then LH has had a hard landing in MEX with damage to the Aircraft and now Avient has crashed in China. I have never faulted the Pilots. They are blameless in my opinion.


They were given an unsafe piece of kit


The only thing that will fix the MD11 is to ground it.
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 19:09   #118 (permalink)
 
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TowerDog,
Just FYI, the link attached was for the Emery California accident, not the Fine Air Miami one that I think you meant?

Agree with your thoughts on shifting cargo though - BAD NEWS!

C o' G
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 20:12   #119 (permalink)
 
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Charter man,
You state the operator had little experience on MD-11 A/C.
Do you think they are flying it from Zimbabwe via internet?
The operators in question were 3 experienced American MD-11 pilots who you indicate need rather slick dispatching to operate competently.
FAR 91.1 states the pic is responsible for the safe operation of the A/C, so don't toot your horn about checking everything in your area of responsibility.
As for me 30+ years, 20,000+, 16,000+ pic, no accidents/incidents, 5000+MD-11
Must have been lucky!
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Old 1st Dec 2009, 20:48   #120 (permalink)
 
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Mass, Balance & Loading differences

Question for any experienced DC-10/ MD-11 Loadies.

Are there any 'gotchas' between the older/ newer variants? (Apart from Ground Stab awareness for both)

Never worked either type, so just interested.

C o' G
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