The Weakest Link?
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pj2
you don't know what flare reserve is? ok...better look in the past for an answer
but you don't like the lessons of the past.
so...be ignorant.
and good luck.
as to the rest of your post...I thought about answering each one of your thoughts...and then I asked myself: why?
he doesn't even know what flare reserve is.
I've let my CFIIMEI lapse. and I don't think you have enough money to make me want to teach you something.
I have my view...you have yours.
over and out
but you don't like the lessons of the past.
so...be ignorant.
and good luck.
as to the rest of your post...I thought about answering each one of your thoughts...and then I asked myself: why?
he doesn't even know what flare reserve is.
I've let my CFIIMEI lapse. and I don't think you have enough money to make me want to teach you something.
I have my view...you have yours.
over and out
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Now thinking...
Airbus has to be really upset because the Hudson River incident could have been an excellent publicity for their airplanes. I think it has, but not the extent it could had.
This article would seem a attempt to attract the attention to the airplane.
They can make a campaign: "Our airplanes are more buoyant than Boeing's"
The flight control system (the real difference between Airbus and other manufacturers) was not what made the miracle possible.
I fly A320 and I like it. I don't have to compensate because I don't have feedback from the flight controls in the form of stick artificial feeling. I have the envelope protections so I will not break the airplane into pieces by pushing the sidestick too hard.
But flying manually is basically the same thanin any other airplane. Sidestick backwards, nose up. Forward, nose down. Left, roll left, right roll back. Physics are the same for everybody so the effects are the same.
I miss from the Boeing the artificial forces. I liked to trim.
Is it easier for a begginer to handfly a Airbus than a boeing? I think so, because there is a technique they won't need. But there are no cessnas, pipers or tobagos (french) with fbw sidesticks, yet. So any pilot reaching an Airbus cockpit knows how to trim already.
Being "less pilot" is a matter of automation, rather that flight controls.
At least Sully did not say anything negative about the airplane. If he had been one of those Airbus haters...
Airbus has to be really upset because the Hudson River incident could have been an excellent publicity for their airplanes. I think it has, but not the extent it could had.
This article would seem a attempt to attract the attention to the airplane.
They can make a campaign: "Our airplanes are more buoyant than Boeing's"
The flight control system (the real difference between Airbus and other manufacturers) was not what made the miracle possible.
I fly A320 and I like it. I don't have to compensate because I don't have feedback from the flight controls in the form of stick artificial feeling. I have the envelope protections so I will not break the airplane into pieces by pushing the sidestick too hard.
But flying manually is basically the same thanin any other airplane. Sidestick backwards, nose up. Forward, nose down. Left, roll left, right roll back. Physics are the same for everybody so the effects are the same.
I miss from the Boeing the artificial forces. I liked to trim.
Is it easier for a begginer to handfly a Airbus than a boeing? I think so, because there is a technique they won't need. But there are no cessnas, pipers or tobagos (french) with fbw sidesticks, yet. So any pilot reaching an Airbus cockpit knows how to trim already.
Being "less pilot" is a matter of automation, rather that flight controls.
At least Sully did not say anything negative about the airplane. If he had been one of those Airbus haters...
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PTH, I often deeply respect your posts; PJ2, your understanding of how these big birds work is passed on in your excellent expositions time and again, helping those of us whose knowledge is less extensive ..... I would like to thank you both.
Microburst raises a point that movement of the primary controls in either an airbus or a boeing is the same as any other airplane.
Now "if you look in the past", isn't it a fact that the Wright Brothers' Flyer was exceedingly difficult to fly, because the logic of the movement of the controls
was reversed?
Seems to me that the more one can standardise the effects of controls, the position of instruments, throttle levers, flap levers, wheel brake controls, the pilot is less likely to make a mistake.
Microburst raises a point that movement of the primary controls in either an airbus or a boeing is the same as any other airplane.
Now "if you look in the past", isn't it a fact that the Wright Brothers' Flyer was exceedingly difficult to fly, because the logic of the movement of the controls
was reversed?
Seems to me that the more one can standardise the effects of controls, the position of instruments, throttle levers, flap levers, wheel brake controls, the pilot is less likely to make a mistake.
Flare Reserve
PTH,
Flare Reserve seems to be an American colloquialism. I would be interested to know what it is. I suspect that it is the Kinetic energy, expressed as speed, that is lost in the flare to land, but I'm not sure.
Google hasn't been my friend this time.
Flare Reserve seems to be an American colloquialism. I would be interested to know what it is. I suspect that it is the Kinetic energy, expressed as speed, that is lost in the flare to land, but I'm not sure.
Google hasn't been my friend this time.
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2. I think a better landing in the river/on the river would have been possible with an older non FBW airplane...the plane sully flew didn't have a big ''flare reserve'' to cushion the landing.
Where is the bugspray?
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postman
I imagine the landing / ditching would have been better if:
1. no one was injured (the f/a had a severe leg gash)
2. the plane could be hauled out of the water, dried off and flown again.
oh...yeah...that happened to a DC8 just shy of the runway at San Francisco, CA. plane landed in the water (non fly by wire mind you)...later pulled out and FLEW VERY WELL FOR ANOTHER 20 years.
Bug spray indeed
1. no one was injured (the f/a had a severe leg gash)
2. the plane could be hauled out of the water, dried off and flown again.
oh...yeah...that happened to a DC8 just shy of the runway at San Francisco, CA. plane landed in the water (non fly by wire mind you)...later pulled out and FLEW VERY WELL FOR ANOTHER 20 years.
Bug spray indeed
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protectthehornet
1. Unfortunate any other outcome would have been worse.
2. They probably could have done that to the A320 if it had landed in San Francisco Bay! The DC8 landing where Sully had to ditch it in a fast flowing river would have suffered the same fate!
Your terminology caused a little confusion re "flare reserve", which I presume BEARDY has deciphered, well the flare reserve would be there in a FBW Airbus it would be down to the pilot skills that Sully displayed.
Did you fly the DC9 by any chance?
1. no one was injured (the f/a had a severe leg gash)
2. the plane could be hauled out of the water, dried off and flown again.
oh...yeah...that happened to a DC8 just shy of the runway at San Francisco, CA. plane landed in the water (non fly by wire mind you)...later pulled out and FLEW VERY WELL FOR ANOTHER 20 years.
2. the plane could be hauled out of the water, dried off and flown again.
oh...yeah...that happened to a DC8 just shy of the runway at San Francisco, CA. plane landed in the water (non fly by wire mind you)...later pulled out and FLEW VERY WELL FOR ANOTHER 20 years.
2. They probably could have done that to the A320 if it had landed in San Francisco Bay! The DC8 landing where Sully had to ditch it in a fast flowing river would have suffered the same fate!
Your terminology caused a little confusion re "flare reserve", which I presume BEARDY has deciphered, well the flare reserve would be there in a FBW Airbus it would be down to the pilot skills that Sully displayed.
Did you fly the DC9 by any chance?
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Iceman
yeah, I did fly the DC9
anyway...I would rather land in the hudson, during the daylight rather than San Francisco Bay at NIGHT.
The landing in SF Bay was unintentional,at night, and amazingly with full flaps and gear down.
The river was running at a huge (sarcastic) 4 knots according to reports of the day.
It amazes me that flare reserve is not in the lexicon of your piloting school. I learned it from the author's father's book.
I guess you might also assume the DC8 was a stronger plane than the A320...as the eight went on to fly again.
yeah, I did fly the DC9
anyway...I would rather land in the hudson, during the daylight rather than San Francisco Bay at NIGHT.
The landing in SF Bay was unintentional,at night, and amazingly with full flaps and gear down.
The river was running at a huge (sarcastic) 4 knots according to reports of the day.
It amazes me that flare reserve is not in the lexicon of your piloting school. I learned it from the author's father's book.
I guess you might also assume the DC8 was a stronger plane than the A320...as the eight went on to fly again.
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protectthehornet
I brought up the fact the river was flowing as you obviously cannot relate to the two differences. The fact that the Hudson was flowing created a problem for the rescue of the passengers and crew as well as aircraft recovery! The major damage was done in the rescue operation and preventing the aircraft drifting out to sea.
You are also not comparing similar type of accidents if you say the DC8 was an UNINTENTIONAL ditching.
As for the aviation lexicon NO "flare reserve" was not in my "piloting school" terminology still that was only 40 years ago! You should not get so defensive when you are asked to explain your "terminology", we did not all go to the same school nor in the same country. PPrune is a world wide forum not just your backyard.
The only "flare reserve" I was taught about was on my time on military helo's and you had that at the bottom of an auto-rotation due to the energy in the rotor-head and the energy you imparted to it from the flare, as well as a normal flare. It was never specifically called that on my fixed wing training.
Are you the "old" JONDC9?
I brought up the fact the river was flowing as you obviously cannot relate to the two differences. The fact that the Hudson was flowing created a problem for the rescue of the passengers and crew as well as aircraft recovery! The major damage was done in the rescue operation and preventing the aircraft drifting out to sea.
You are also not comparing similar type of accidents if you say the DC8 was an UNINTENTIONAL ditching.
As for the aviation lexicon NO "flare reserve" was not in my "piloting school" terminology still that was only 40 years ago! You should not get so defensive when you are asked to explain your "terminology", we did not all go to the same school nor in the same country. PPrune is a world wide forum not just your backyard.
The only "flare reserve" I was taught about was on my time on military helo's and you had that at the bottom of an auto-rotation due to the energy in the rotor-head and the energy you imparted to it from the flare, as well as a normal flare. It was never specifically called that on my fixed wing training.
Are you the "old" JONDC9?
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Iceman
the damage was largely from the impact and not the rescue according to the reports I've read.
as for terminology, this thread started with a book by a fellow named langweische...I guess I made a mistake and assumed that everyone had read his father's book, which I mentioned in earlier posts: "Stick and Rudder", from which I heard the term in question.
JONDC9, who is that? In the words of Popeye...I yam what I yam.
Indeed it was the lack of flare reserve that had the impact greater than the airframe could withstand...at least at the aft end...
the damage was largely from the impact and not the rescue according to the reports I've read.
as for terminology, this thread started with a book by a fellow named langweische...I guess I made a mistake and assumed that everyone had read his father's book, which I mentioned in earlier posts: "Stick and Rudder", from which I heard the term in question.
JONDC9, who is that? In the words of Popeye...I yam what I yam.
Indeed it was the lack of flare reserve that had the impact greater than the airframe could withstand...at least at the aft end...
I went solo in 1957 and have flown professionally since 1960.
Can anyone out there explain to me in words that I might understand just what on earth "flare reserve" is?
Can anyone out there explain to me in words that I might understand just what on earth "flare reserve" is?
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Went solo in a glider in 1988, and solo, powered in 1989. Never flown a helicopter, but my brother does, and I've never heard of "flare reserve", until now.
I can take a stab at guessing what it means, but I wouldn't say it is in the general lexicon.
I can take a stab at guessing what it means, but I wouldn't say it is in the general lexicon.
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Flare Reserve
411, I cant believe you are not pulling my wily
Perhaps an obscure wording, but apt nevertheless.
You need enough energy (Mass and Airspeed plus thrust)
to arrest your descent towards the ground (or upslope)and THEN complete the flare
Normally with idle thrust and TTS of V1.3 youve got it
If you are descending on the glideslope at V1.0 you definitely havent
Upslope , drag, lack of thrust and lightweight make it worse so you need more...even to the extent of exceeding flaps speed in a blunt aeroplane
Thats where skill and experience come in useful
Wilyflier
Of course I remember now they told me on 1-11 and 737 to put it on firmly, dont flare Flaring is fine but it eats up runway.
Perhaps an obscure wording, but apt nevertheless.
You need enough energy (Mass and Airspeed plus thrust)
to arrest your descent towards the ground (or upslope)and THEN complete the flare
Normally with idle thrust and TTS of V1.3 youve got it
If you are descending on the glideslope at V1.0 you definitely havent
Upslope , drag, lack of thrust and lightweight make it worse so you need more...even to the extent of exceeding flaps speed in a blunt aeroplane
Thats where skill and experience come in useful
Wilyflier
Of course I remember now they told me on 1-11 and 737 to put it on firmly, dont flare Flaring is fine but it eats up runway.
Last edited by wilyflier; 19th Nov 2009 at 15:57. Reason: addition
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wilyflier
thank you for understanding what "FLARE RESERVE" is. I am always amazed that people in our brief history of airplane flight (coming up on 106 years now), that they haven't bothered to go back to the beginning and try to touch on just about everything in flying.
But some people don't even make allowences for upslope or downslope on landing, or a myriad of things that would take too long to discuss here. (their landings show it)
Wily, I know you know the type...they learn enought to pass a test and that's the end of their learning. and woe to them for sure! Like those folks who don't know why the right hand turn is standard in holding.
Or that there are jokes out there in the world of morse code identifiers like the ILS at SFO...the --.- the last letter of one of the runways...also the rhythmic value of the first notes of "San Francisco, Open your Golden Gate"
I've learned alot from people who have never flown a jet...like the C46 pilot who said: NEVER TOUCH anything too shiny on a plane...like a switch...because it is not a wellworn switch and you better know what it does before you hit it.
So all of you out there...why not go back to kitty hawk/kill devil hills and start your learning all over from the start. its only 106 years or so...its not like you are learning the history of english speaking countries.
But some people don't even make allowences for upslope or downslope on landing, or a myriad of things that would take too long to discuss here. (their landings show it)
Wily, I know you know the type...they learn enought to pass a test and that's the end of their learning. and woe to them for sure! Like those folks who don't know why the right hand turn is standard in holding.
Or that there are jokes out there in the world of morse code identifiers like the ILS at SFO...the --.- the last letter of one of the runways...also the rhythmic value of the first notes of "San Francisco, Open your Golden Gate"
I've learned alot from people who have never flown a jet...like the C46 pilot who said: NEVER TOUCH anything too shiny on a plane...like a switch...because it is not a wellworn switch and you better know what it does before you hit it.
So all of you out there...why not go back to kitty hawk/kill devil hills and start your learning all over from the start. its only 106 years or so...its not like you are learning the history of english speaking countries.
I am slightly annoyed by certain type of fliers who divert attention from their ignorance by berating everyone else for not knowing an obscure and largely irrelevant bit of aeronautical knowledge. Now we found out that the flare reserve is simply excess speed as the aeroplane comes to land, how could you ever claim that:
What in the wide world does the FBW have with aerodynamic characteristics of the aeroplane? Despite the rumours to the contrary, 320 does not have relaxed static stability and would not tumble end over end if all of her computers decide to go on vacation simultaneously. Are you suggesting that A320 doesn't float in the flare? If you do, you are seriously wrong. She floats happily - not that the pilots who are not allowed to disconnect autothrust would know that.
Originally Posted by Protectthehornet
2. I think a better landing in the river/on the river would have been possible with an older non FBW airplane...the plane sully flew didn't have a big ''flare reserve'' to cushion the landing.
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flare reserve
This side of the water we use REF SPEED.
Flare reserve, piloting school, no offense buddy but you sound like a cropdusting, bannertowing bushpilot with that terminology.
One thing I was taught in 'piloting school' is to re-phrase when one is not understood. Guess your piloting school had a different syllabus.
Ditch an Airbus in the Hudson and 1 FA gets injured. Tough as it sounds, I call that a reason to hop on the bus (or boat for that matter) to Atlantic City and place some serious bets, cuz you ain't gonna get any luckier than that.
Flare reserve, piloting school, no offense buddy but you sound like a cropdusting, bannertowing bushpilot with that terminology.
One thing I was taught in 'piloting school' is to re-phrase when one is not understood. Guess your piloting school had a different syllabus
.Ditch an Airbus in the Hudson and 1 FA gets injured. Tough as it sounds, I call that a reason to hop on the bus (or boat for that matter) to Atlantic City and place some serious bets, cuz you ain't gonna get any luckier than that.
Flare reserve in THAT situation=the ability to arrest a high ROD by increasing AOA not possible if AOA is already too high ,...nothings wrong with banner towing bush pilots those guys Know how to fly and have Balls