Air France A330 "Crash Revelations" tonight
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Isn't that sweet mate !!! Over 2000 pilots chose to vote for AF ALPA over ALTER or SPAF and that doesn't tell you anything ???
I've had a good look at history............round about 1917 somewhere in the east and I remember that the smaller you are, the more noise you've got to make to get attention. But comes next election, you'll still get the same pathetic results and you know why ??? Because apart some dubious self proclaimed expert statements to the pundits and the press, you have absolutly zippo to offer and at the end of the day, people just want to move on and work and don't wish to blow up the shop to pieces even if it needs a lot of fixing up.
I suggest you click on Sully Sullenberger interview link and learn how one pleads a case with flare.
WNYC media player
I also suggest you read " Sky Gods " written by an ex Delta captain. Bloody compelling read. You might llearn a thing or two about people who think they will be around forever.
So the way I understand your view is : Over 200O AF pilots are just a bunch of blind morons who don't know the difference between Friday and Sunday, while an homeopathic number is going to save the airline from doom and poor management. Do I read you right ??
Do you plan to set reeducation camps where everyone will chant " AF is lying.............." til the cows come home ?
There are still a bit less than 2000 non union pilots you could go shopping for. That's almost half of the airline !
Come to think of it, you seem to forget the third one of the lot...........even smaller, R'way, so secret that nobody knows how many they are. Got to laugh my head off !!
I've had a good look at history............round about 1917 somewhere in the east and I remember that the smaller you are, the more noise you've got to make to get attention. But comes next election, you'll still get the same pathetic results and you know why ??? Because apart some dubious self proclaimed expert statements to the pundits and the press, you have absolutly zippo to offer and at the end of the day, people just want to move on and work and don't wish to blow up the shop to pieces even if it needs a lot of fixing up.
I suggest you click on Sully Sullenberger interview link and learn how one pleads a case with flare.
WNYC media player
I also suggest you read " Sky Gods " written by an ex Delta captain. Bloody compelling read. You might llearn a thing or two about people who think they will be around forever.
So the way I understand your view is : Over 200O AF pilots are just a bunch of blind morons who don't know the difference between Friday and Sunday, while an homeopathic number is going to save the airline from doom and poor management. Do I read you right ??
Do you plan to set reeducation camps where everyone will chant " AF is lying.............." til the cows come home ?
There are still a bit less than 2000 non union pilots you could go shopping for. That's almost half of the airline !
The small union people are talking about is ALTER and in fact there are two unions because SPAF is also a main charachter into the pitots story..sorry but i don't get informations via journalists !!
Last edited by Me Myself; 2nd Nov 2009 at 00:53.
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So in fact You have nothing to learn from other people, you know exactly what happened and nearly happened to AF pilots because of the main union you are talking about ...i wouldn't dare to talk about US unions or British unions myself as i have no idea of how they work inside their management ...but you do so because of course you have such a french experience and carrier ...
The management of our main union is changing every two year because there are huge power struggle between piltos wanting to get the power inside our main union ...to know why you must be french and know really more than what channel4 is telling you on the news !!! I have nothing against you because virtuallity is not enough to feed me, so i will learn you something ..you can ignore or just listen : in France and in our airline there are two ways of getting powerful seats : first is to be someone people notice when you get employed by the airline, they feel your natural leadership and abilities and you go up the hierarchy after years ...second is to become a union representative, there you get your pilot salary + a per diem for your union work that is really not peanuts...and after years of struggling against your company they offer you a better seat but not as a union representative...of course inside the airline hierarchy...we have many examples of that ....
The 2000 members (i was one of them until very recently) don't have any power except to pay their monthly rate and listen and read what the guys on top did under the name of the union ...never you will get any democratic procedure ...except when the =union is changing its heads..and as i said people fight for these while 2000 are voting....the guy who's now in the "hot shots" voted a "B scale " pay system for the union...he and his friends who had the power decided that ....and it is just because the small unions talked a lot about it that just before it was too late these representatives removed their project that was decided with the airline of course...these guys would have had a great position after such a vote !!!
I won't rewrite all the stories we had with unions in france, and as i said the fact that 2000 people are members of our main union is really not a warranty that facts coming out will be the best options...we have enough examples....
In 1939 a majority of germany was convinced Hitler was right ....just a minority was against ....in south africa during apartheid a majority of whites were ok with that, a minority was against ....
It would be great to be less agressive ...you are trying to make things personnal since you opened that thread...
The management of our main union is changing every two year because there are huge power struggle between piltos wanting to get the power inside our main union ...to know why you must be french and know really more than what channel4 is telling you on the news !!! I have nothing against you because virtuallity is not enough to feed me, so i will learn you something ..you can ignore or just listen : in France and in our airline there are two ways of getting powerful seats : first is to be someone people notice when you get employed by the airline, they feel your natural leadership and abilities and you go up the hierarchy after years ...second is to become a union representative, there you get your pilot salary + a per diem for your union work that is really not peanuts...and after years of struggling against your company they offer you a better seat but not as a union representative...of course inside the airline hierarchy...we have many examples of that ....
The 2000 members (i was one of them until very recently) don't have any power except to pay their monthly rate and listen and read what the guys on top did under the name of the union ...never you will get any democratic procedure ...except when the =union is changing its heads..and as i said people fight for these while 2000 are voting....the guy who's now in the "hot shots" voted a "B scale " pay system for the union...he and his friends who had the power decided that ....and it is just because the small unions talked a lot about it that just before it was too late these representatives removed their project that was decided with the airline of course...these guys would have had a great position after such a vote !!!
I won't rewrite all the stories we had with unions in france, and as i said the fact that 2000 people are members of our main union is really not a warranty that facts coming out will be the best options...we have enough examples....
In 1939 a majority of germany was convinced Hitler was right ....just a minority was against ....in south africa during apartheid a majority of whites were ok with that, a minority was against ....
It would be great to be less agressive ...you are trying to make things personnal since you opened that thread...
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In 1939 a majority of germany was convinced Hitler was right ....just a minority was against ....in south africa during apartheid a majority of whites were ok with that, a minority was against ....
I urge you to listen to Sully's Sullenberger interview. This guy, after having done something that I fear I would never have been able to do, calmly tells you he's lost 40 % of his salary and 2/3 of his pension and voices real concerns about the state of the airline industry, in the US and worldwide. Now, I would call this something to worry about.
All you have to do is to convince the 2000, sorry, 1999 still lost souls to join the right path.
What I know however, is that there is a significant number of AF pilots who are just fed up with this constant public union / management bickering that makes the airline look like a cookoo's nest from the outside. They are too busy doing their job to even waste their time on the internet or union meetings where they're not invited as you said. They also say thank you to the **** who leaked that famous management letter that makes their life so much easier knowing the first next incident will be a meal for the media............and AF competitors.............And I didn't get this on channel 4.
I'm not making it personal, got nothing against you. I just get irked when facts get twisted and your naïvity is compelling. I am glad to hear an audit will take place. I'm sure management will get its fair share of blame.........sorry........recomendations, but if you expect to also come out like Snow White, don't forget to write to Santa come December.
Anyway, given the bad publicity the airline has received after the crash, I don't think any audit will publicly flog AF. It will be done in house, like it should, unless you wish the airline to go down and 10 of thousands of people with it. Mind you, there will no doubt be another " deep throat " ready to leak the report to the media I'm sure.
Don't think I am an altar boy who doesn't know a thing about french politics. I just think it's a lot of drama for very little results. Personal opinion..........backed up by history, that's all.
Channel 4 is brillant, don't you think ?
Anyway, the topic of the thread was : AF 447 on ABC Foreign correspondant : Not worth my time. Still, if you like this kind of Tv, the link is here somewhere. You would wonder why an australian channel has any interest in this.
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No melodramatic wishing list...just reminding that majority is not always right ....that's all...anyway the 'very small unions" are working like mad to make sure that the audit will be very deep and totally independant ...the first idea of the main union was not the same !!
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MS Flight Sim manual ? Are you serious ? Since when was that a document of any authority ? 
A reasonably authoritative document or two can be found on G in a matter of seconds...
B737-800 ACN = 51 with recommended ratio of 1.1 to 1.25 to listed PCN.
What's my prize ?
- mixture.
Thanks Mixture - I refuse to get personal and respond to these guys. Choosing in stead to focus on the beleaguered A330 subject.
Everyone knows by now that the A330 has a serious anomaly/fault concerning Pitots and ADR's !!
A reasonably authoritative document or two can be found on G in a matter of seconds...
B737-800 ACN = 51 with recommended ratio of 1.1 to 1.25 to listed PCN.
What's my prize ?
- mixture.Thanks Mixture - I refuse to get personal and respond to these guys. Choosing in stead to focus on the beleaguered A330 subject.
Everyone knows by now that the A330 has a serious anomaly/fault concerning Pitots and ADR's !!
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Flyboy,
.
What's personal about answering a technical question?
If the A330 is beleaguered it's only by you. What's more, you're using false data to make your point:
In another thread you quote the A330 accident rate as 0.53/million flight hours. Basic math skills might have told you that, with one A330 accident, this means around 2 million accumulated flight hours for the world-wide fleet since 1992. Not very believable.
If you look at the web site you quoted in the post mentioned above, it shows 0.53 for the A300, not the A330.
Furthermore, from the same post, the number for the Boeing -737 ( your text) is 0.19, which is the number for the 737-300/-400/500, which are no longer in production. The number for all 737 types is 0.34
You managed, however, to get the number for the DC10 (completely irrelevant for this discussion) right. Reading one number out of three correctly from a website : quite an achievement.
Puts all your posts into context really.
I refuse to get personal and respond to these guys. Choosing in stead to focus on the beleaguered A330 subject
What's personal about answering a technical question?
If the A330 is beleaguered it's only by you. What's more, you're using false data to make your point:
In another thread you quote the A330 accident rate as 0.53/million flight hours. Basic math skills might have told you that, with one A330 accident, this means around 2 million accumulated flight hours for the world-wide fleet since 1992. Not very believable.
If you look at the web site you quoted in the post mentioned above, it shows 0.53 for the A300, not the A330.
Furthermore, from the same post, the number for the Boeing -737 ( your text) is 0.19, which is the number for the 737-300/-400/500, which are no longer in production. The number for all 737 types is 0.34
You managed, however, to get the number for the DC10 (completely irrelevant for this discussion) right. Reading one number out of three correctly from a website : quite an achievement.
Puts all your posts into context really.
Last edited by Brakes on; 2nd Nov 2009 at 18:14.
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Flyboy, why oh why do you do this to yourself. Just about everyone on this website thinks you are a complete and utter imbecile, yet you continue with this self torture.
This is a forum where aviation events and topics are discussed in great detail and among professional pilots. Opinions here are strongly backed, often well justified and thoroughly examined by all who log in. You have made no such contribution towards you very narrow minded and technically limited opinion.
And by the way it's spelled instead not in stead. Go get a job kid!
This is a forum where aviation events and topics are discussed in great detail and among professional pilots. Opinions here are strongly backed, often well justified and thoroughly examined by all who log in. You have made no such contribution towards you very narrow minded and technically limited opinion.
And by the way it's spelled instead not in stead. Go get a job kid!
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Facts before Emotion Please!
As an ex 747 and A330 pilot and now an A380 pilot, I am interested in this forum, but wish it was limited to inputs from professionals.
If there is a moderator for this forum, please exclude FlyBoy737800. His input is uninformed and a waste of our reading time.
It is clear Northrop Grumman has issues with their ADIRUs. No problems - computers fail - that's why there are three of them.
It is clear the 777 and A330 had logic problems eliminating faulty ADIRU inputs from the active system logic. This logic can and will be fixed. The longest incident on the Perth A330 incident occurred (in software) for a period of 0.5 seconds during which the software logic was inadequate given the conditions. No-one was killed in either of these 777 or A330 incidents. Only two A330 hulls have been lost with passengers on board, the recent AF flight and one that ran off a runway (no deaths).
It is also clear (when you look at the %hull losses and fatalities per fleet), that the 777 is one of the safest (0.1% hulls lost) large commercial aircraft in the sky and that the entire Airbus FBW hull loss rate of 0.4%, 1/6th of the same for all Boeing acft certified since 1960.
If you want more stats, then Boeing FBW aircraft are 18 times safer (hull losses) than their post 1960 non FBW versions. The Airbus FBW aircraft are 9 times safer than their non FBW versions. By the way, this does not imply the Airbus are less safe than the Boeing, rather that the Boeing non FBW fleets had a high hull loss rate (in comparison).
These are the facts.
FBW designs may not be perfect, but they are proven to be an order of magnitude safer than their non FBW alternatives. All problems that have been identified are being fixed.
All Airbus and Boeing FBW aircraft are remarkably safe.
If there is a moderator for this forum, please exclude FlyBoy737800. His input is uninformed and a waste of our reading time.
It is clear Northrop Grumman has issues with their ADIRUs. No problems - computers fail - that's why there are three of them.
It is clear the 777 and A330 had logic problems eliminating faulty ADIRU inputs from the active system logic. This logic can and will be fixed. The longest incident on the Perth A330 incident occurred (in software) for a period of 0.5 seconds during which the software logic was inadequate given the conditions. No-one was killed in either of these 777 or A330 incidents. Only two A330 hulls have been lost with passengers on board, the recent AF flight and one that ran off a runway (no deaths).
It is also clear (when you look at the %hull losses and fatalities per fleet), that the 777 is one of the safest (0.1% hulls lost) large commercial aircraft in the sky and that the entire Airbus FBW hull loss rate of 0.4%, 1/6th of the same for all Boeing acft certified since 1960.
If you want more stats, then Boeing FBW aircraft are 18 times safer (hull losses) than their post 1960 non FBW versions. The Airbus FBW aircraft are 9 times safer than their non FBW versions. By the way, this does not imply the Airbus are less safe than the Boeing, rather that the Boeing non FBW fleets had a high hull loss rate (in comparison).
These are the facts.
FBW designs may not be perfect, but they are proven to be an order of magnitude safer than their non FBW alternatives. All problems that have been identified are being fixed.
All Airbus and Boeing FBW aircraft are remarkably safe.
35Yr
Could not agree with you more. The sad reality is that journalists can trawl this website with impunity. Flyboy is most certainly one.
I feel safer going to work today than when I started in the industry which was on the L1011. I must say that the 744 is my preferred mode of transport although I have done time on the Bus and the 777.
The A330 is a safe a/c. A bit sloppy in final config and below 1,000ft but a great a/c in all other aspects.
Whatever the cause of the AF loss, it was not the airframe. It may have well been the pitots, it may have been something else but you Flyboy need to get a life...outside of PPrune.
Could not agree with you more. The sad reality is that journalists can trawl this website with impunity. Flyboy is most certainly one.
I feel safer going to work today than when I started in the industry which was on the L1011. I must say that the 744 is my preferred mode of transport although I have done time on the Bus and the 777.
The A330 is a safe a/c. A bit sloppy in final config and below 1,000ft but a great a/c in all other aspects.
Whatever the cause of the AF loss, it was not the airframe. It may have well been the pitots, it may have been something else but you Flyboy need to get a life...outside of PPrune.
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Wellcome on board 35YearPilot !
That's surely a darn good first post !
And you may be the first A380 pilot in our community.
Some facts just posted on the EK330 thread.
A340-200/300 and A330 are two A/C but with the same basic design (the A340-500/600 being another story of course).
At end Aug 2009, the two fleets have accumulated the following flight hours and take offs :
A342/A343 : 11.600.000 flight hours and 1.700.000 take offs
A330 : 14.100.000 flight hours and 3.500.000 take offs
Let's our 737 flying ace do the maths !
And you may be the first A380 pilot in our community.
Some facts just posted on the EK330 thread.
A340-200/300 and A330 are two A/C but with the same basic design (the A340-500/600 being another story of course).
At end Aug 2009, the two fleets have accumulated the following flight hours and take offs :
A342/A343 : 11.600.000 flight hours and 1.700.000 take offs
A330 : 14.100.000 flight hours and 3.500.000 take offs
Let's our 737 flying ace do the maths !
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Hi,
VR-HFX
That's interesting. From where you got this crucial information ? About safer planes of today : What make safer the plane is not only the FBW system ... it's also better general design and certainly huge progresses in the engines design and their better reliability. I wonder what is the quantified part of the FBW in this game ? FBW play certainly a huge part for a better and economical exploitation of the liners iinstead be a major player in the security aera. A 737-200 FBW will be safest than a standard one ?
VR-HFX
it was not the airframe
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A330 Sloppy on finals
Dear VR-HFX
Thanks for your welcome message. I have actually been watching PPrune for years but have never been spurred into action to contribute until:
- A TV program (two weeks ago) on "Death by Automation" by a Boeing Pilot,
- Another TV program (last week) "Foreign ....." program on the AF and A330 Perth incidents, and
- FlyBoy
All three sources distorted the facts, made correlations where none were due, and (because they do not know the aircraft technically) displayed ignorance. It has been a constant interest to me that the pilots who are the most vocal to criticise Airbus are those that have never flown them!
I think the "Death by Automation" issue can be countered by the FBW statistics. That's why I offered them.
BTW: I agree with you 200% about the A330 being sloppy near the ground in CONFIG 3 and FULL. I researched this topic (and PIOs) extensively and came to conclusions that will be published later. You and other A330 pilots should know though that this issue has been solved in the A380 - which is much more quick to manoeuvre in roll in CONFIG 3 and FULL.
The A380 is everything the A330 could have dreamed to be - plus more! I think that, compared to the 747s and A330, it's the perfect aircraft.
Thanks for your welcome message. I have actually been watching PPrune for years but have never been spurred into action to contribute until:
- A TV program (two weeks ago) on "Death by Automation" by a Boeing Pilot,
- Another TV program (last week) "Foreign ....." program on the AF and A330 Perth incidents, and
- FlyBoy
All three sources distorted the facts, made correlations where none were due, and (because they do not know the aircraft technically) displayed ignorance. It has been a constant interest to me that the pilots who are the most vocal to criticise Airbus are those that have never flown them!
I think the "Death by Automation" issue can be countered by the FBW statistics. That's why I offered them.
BTW: I agree with you 200% about the A330 being sloppy near the ground in CONFIG 3 and FULL. I researched this topic (and PIOs) extensively and came to conclusions that will be published later. You and other A330 pilots should know though that this issue has been solved in the A380 - which is much more quick to manoeuvre in roll in CONFIG 3 and FULL.
The A380 is everything the A330 could have dreamed to be - plus more! I think that, compared to the 747s and A330, it's the perfect aircraft.
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First post...not a pilot...not pretending to be unlike others on this thread..
Actually I was quite scared of flying, and joined pprune a while ago to help cure my fear hearing from you folk talk about modern flying..which it did, thanks
That being said, from a consumers perspective, their is not a hope in the world you would get me on an Airbus. My staff have been banned from booking me on Qantas, Jetstar or Air New Zealand for this reason, and this reason only. Virgin get my $20k worth of business per annum for this reason only.
Qantas has had quite a major issue with a A330 over Perth, Jetstar had one last week on a Mel-Singapore flight, Air New Zealand crashed one in France a few months back, add to the the Air France flight and a couple of others...
Now for my two bob on the Air France Foreign Correspondant show: I watched the ABC show and agree with most on this thread that it was a bit of a beat up. We can speculate on what happened but until we know, we can only look at likely causes, put in place procedures to ensure those likely causes dont potentially occur again, but we cant string people or companies up without hard facts, it doesnt do anybody any good to do that. That said, Airbus is getting a perception issue.
As I said, might be a perfectly safe aircraft, but perceptions are everything.
Actually I was quite scared of flying, and joined pprune a while ago to help cure my fear hearing from you folk talk about modern flying..which it did, thanks
That being said, from a consumers perspective, their is not a hope in the world you would get me on an Airbus. My staff have been banned from booking me on Qantas, Jetstar or Air New Zealand for this reason, and this reason only. Virgin get my $20k worth of business per annum for this reason only.
Qantas has had quite a major issue with a A330 over Perth, Jetstar had one last week on a Mel-Singapore flight, Air New Zealand crashed one in France a few months back, add to the the Air France flight and a couple of others...
Now for my two bob on the Air France Foreign Correspondant show: I watched the ABC show and agree with most on this thread that it was a bit of a beat up. We can speculate on what happened but until we know, we can only look at likely causes, put in place procedures to ensure those likely causes dont potentially occur again, but we cant string people or companies up without hard facts, it doesnt do anybody any good to do that. That said, Airbus is getting a perception issue.
As I said, might be a perfectly safe aircraft, but perceptions are everything.
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A330/340 Flying Hours
Dear llagonne66
Thank you for these statistics. I will put them into my basket of numbers for possible future use later.
It's fascinating that, had the 777 not crashed at LHR two years ago, that the 777 fleet would not have lost a hull (in an 800 or so production line).
It's also very sad that the AF loss is the first loss of an A330 with passengers in flight (over 1000 delivered).
Both aircraft have remarkable safety records.
Thank you for these statistics. I will put them into my basket of numbers for possible future use later.
It's fascinating that, had the 777 not crashed at LHR two years ago, that the 777 fleet would not have lost a hull (in an 800 or so production line).
It's also very sad that the AF loss is the first loss of an A330 with passengers in flight (over 1000 delivered).
Both aircraft have remarkable safety records.
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Justin_W
It is unfortunate that you would allow yourself to be swayed by headline-grabbing media.
The numbers are here for you to see. The option of where your 20K go is always, obviously, yours.
However, it seems that your decision, which I state again, is perfectly valid "per se", is being based in poor quality information. You strike me as a businessman, and I'm sure you wouldn't base your business decisions on poor info either.
Just think about it.
The numbers are here for you to see. The option of where your 20K go is always, obviously, yours.
However, it seems that your decision, which I state again, is perfectly valid "per se", is being based in poor quality information. You strike me as a businessman, and I'm sure you wouldn't base your business decisions on poor info either.
Just think about it.
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People can split hairs all they want, but the bedrock facts are as 35Yr described them.
1. All modern air travel is incredibly safe.
2. Air safety has continued to improve with each new generation of equipment.
3. Safety is provided by a combination of improved technology (such as FBW, etc.) and improved training and procedures.
4. While the pilot whose skills are already perfect may not have his flight's safety improved by more advanced technology or procedures, no pilot's skills are perfect.
5. Thus, it is the combination of technology, training and procedures that matters, and empirical experience has shown that this ever-evolving combination has improved overall safety.
1. All modern air travel is incredibly safe.
2. Air safety has continued to improve with each new generation of equipment.
3. Safety is provided by a combination of improved technology (such as FBW, etc.) and improved training and procedures.
4. While the pilot whose skills are already perfect may not have his flight's safety improved by more advanced technology or procedures, no pilot's skills are perfect.
5. Thus, it is the combination of technology, training and procedures that matters, and empirical experience has shown that this ever-evolving combination has improved overall safety.
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. Thus, it is the combination of technology, training and procedures that matters, and empirical experience has shown that this ever-evolving combination has improved overall safety.
Any answer to this tragedy will be better than no answer and by that I mean, evidence based answers not wild speculations coming out of some law firm, who I'm sure, has only its client's best interest in mind.
Actually, their appointed expert should run the inquest instead of those plodering BEA investigators who report directly their master.............the french governement.
Wouldn't that be a bargain ? An oceanic search vessel, governmental logistic and law agency all rolled into one individual. I say go for it, it's a bargain and will save tax payers a hoodle of money.
Did I put this right ??
Last edited by Me Myself; 6th Nov 2009 at 00:11.