Air France A330 "Crash Revelations" tonight
FlyBoy, your head is up your arse and you do the aviation industry a severe injustice if you can seriously believe that any manufacturers, regulatory authorities and accident investigation bodies do not want to find the 'black boxes' after this or any such accident. The only reserve that may well understandably be shown is to avoid feeding ignorant journalists, who have no interest in safety, of any information that will inevitably end up being distorted and sensationalised.
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Yikes, Air France ain't what it used to be
FlyBoy737800, AF has been "partially privatized", a term we were not allowed to use at Reuters, because we would get a phone call from the Elysée Palace ("French white house", so to speak) every time we did. So we were stuck with "opening up of share capital".
Last I remember the French Government had an 18.6% stake and employees, another 14.1%. As with any other listed corporation, you can only access the folks who bought into the IPO. What the actual stakes are, after offstage resales and transfers are, um, nobody really knows except the Board, which only has a reasonable approximation.
For details of institutional holdings: AFLYY: AIR FRANCE KLM Institutional Ownership.
And if you really want me to lawyer the point, actually, Air France ceased to exist since the merger with domestic carrier Air Inter. Already a private airline thriving under protectionist policies prior to EU open skies policy, the legal engineering figured that the easiest way to merge the two was for Air Inter to gobble up Air France and then the merged unit could exploit the "Air France" trademark as if it had been the other way round.
But true, FlyBoy737800, AF is a symbol of French national prestige and you really oughta an "e" to "boxes" of the black sort before asserting they will never be found. My outsider's guess is that money may cap the search and that the actual findings may never be released, but both AF and Airbus Industrie really do want to know what happened. Unlike vacuum cleaners and hair dryers that electrocute individual consumers, airliners are just "too big to fail" and if Airbus products get too bad a reputation, the company will fail eventually.
Personally, I think Boeing needs strong competition, so I'm happy about Airbus and about Chinese initiatives to work towards a longhaul aircraft, but that is another issue.
(Con-Pilot may dispute this as some irrelevant posting of mine elsewhere seems to have cost me all credibility in his eyes, but hey folks! Check it like you check anything else anybody raps on about. Happy skies!)
Last I remember the French Government had an 18.6% stake and employees, another 14.1%. As with any other listed corporation, you can only access the folks who bought into the IPO. What the actual stakes are, after offstage resales and transfers are, um, nobody really knows except the Board, which only has a reasonable approximation.
For details of institutional holdings: AFLYY: AIR FRANCE KLM Institutional Ownership.
And if you really want me to lawyer the point, actually, Air France ceased to exist since the merger with domestic carrier Air Inter. Already a private airline thriving under protectionist policies prior to EU open skies policy, the legal engineering figured that the easiest way to merge the two was for Air Inter to gobble up Air France and then the merged unit could exploit the "Air France" trademark as if it had been the other way round.
But true, FlyBoy737800, AF is a symbol of French national prestige and you really oughta an "e" to "boxes" of the black sort before asserting they will never be found. My outsider's guess is that money may cap the search and that the actual findings may never be released, but both AF and Airbus Industrie really do want to know what happened. Unlike vacuum cleaners and hair dryers that electrocute individual consumers, airliners are just "too big to fail" and if Airbus products get too bad a reputation, the company will fail eventually.
Personally, I think Boeing needs strong competition, so I'm happy about Airbus and about Chinese initiatives to work towards a longhaul aircraft, but that is another issue.
(Con-Pilot may dispute this as some irrelevant posting of mine elsewhere seems to have cost me all credibility in his eyes, but hey folks! Check it like you check anything else anybody raps on about. Happy skies!)
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Terry Robinson
How do I re-hash a dead story with no new clues, but sensationalize it for maximum impact ?
He should be fired QED.
He should be fired QED.
Re your second: Nope. Fear is exactly what they are paid to instill and loyalty to the rag's advertisers are precisely why said advertisers lather them up generously in arcane little ways.
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Quote:
Personally, I think Boeing needs strong competition, and I'm happy about Airbus efforts...
Personnally, I think Airbus needs some competition, and I'm happy of Boeing efforts to keep trying making aircraft....
Personally, I think Boeing needs strong competition, and I'm happy about Airbus efforts...
Personnally, I think Airbus needs some competition, and I'm happy of Boeing efforts to keep trying making aircraft....
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FlyBoy737800, AF has been "partially privatized", a term we were not allowed to use at Reuters, because we would get a phone call from the Elysée Palace ("French white house", so to speak) every time we did
So Reuters obeys the Elysée palace?
Just like Agence France Presse...
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More revelation on A330 / Air France uncovered
Check this out -
Airbus AF 447 : La France les a tués : Crash Airbus Air France AF 447 Rio-Paris
Seeing the BIG picture yet Boys !!! and Girls ?
Airbus AF 447 : La France les a tués : Crash Airbus Air France AF 447 Rio-Paris
Seeing the BIG picture yet Boys !!! and Girls ?
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FlyBoy, you're still speaking s**t ... but, just for a moment I'll give you the benefit of the doubt so, in your OWN words could you please tell us all what happened to AF477 - please do not spare the technical details. I'm sure we all want to hear your theory...
fc101
E145 driver
fc101
E145 driver
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It's not about being open or not. It's going back to the same Boeing vs. Airbus, France vs. USA 
......
Please there have been many Boeing crashes since 1988....and some that have not been solved 100%......
......Please there have been many Boeing crashes since 1988....and some that have not been solved 100%......
Originally Posted by FlyBoy737800
I have an open mind - which is an endangered quality here.
So what is that answer on the ACN/PCN question ? .... been a while since it was asked, having trouble finding it in the MS Flight Sim manual ?
Zero creability, time waster.
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Yggorf
"Not allowed" to use the term?
So Reuters obeys the Elysée palace?
Just like Agence France Presse...
So Reuters obeys the Elysée palace?
Just like Agence France Presse...
However, when it comes to such interference, postponement of release of an item, or simple direct archiving without release, a grrrrreat distinction is made between media from Countries We Don't Like and Countries We Like. In the first case, such deeds are called "censorship"; in the second, it is called "news management".
It is a matter of playing ball: either you do each other little favours or you risk receiving official press releases a few minutes later than other wire services. In extreme cases, accreditation is withdrawn and you simply stop getting invited to government press conferences. After all, nobody has to invite you.
When you're running a wire service, you give your journalists copies of the "timings".
These are slips of paper that list who got a given on the wire first, second, third and so on. If your folks are systematically getting notified only a few minutes after the competition, customers give you a reputation for being slow.
I don't know what's happened since Thomson bought up Reuters, but in the 1990s, if any piece of major economic and financial news hit the wire elsewhere, market prices would only start moving once Reuters had confirmed it.
That said, AFP long had superior overall coverage of Africa, Asia and the Middle East. Reuters was best for Europe and sharp for the USA. US wire services were great for the USA.
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Well Folks,
I've followed Flyboy 738's link and the only observation I find of note, as a non-techie, is a philosophical one by French Parliamentarian Odile Saugues, sourced from "Journal de Dimanche", a decent Sunday rag with crosswords I could solve:
In substance, she says the BEA accident investigation bureau knows its job but, unlike the NTSB, is a government agency so it will only tell what it wants folks to know and some pilots call the relationship between BEA and the DGAC civil aviation authority "incestuous", with DGAC personnel shuttling into/out of ministerial cabinet jobs. Moreover, some DGAC folks are likely ex-BEA or ex-Air France. "You get the impression some dirty linen gets washed inside the family.
Is anyone surprised?
Le BEA français est extrêmement compétent et qualifié mais, contrairement au National Transport Safety Board américain, cet organisme dépend du gouvernement. Nous ne saurons que ce que l'on veut bien nous dire. C'est un des problèmes soulevés par les pilotes, qui dénoncent une certaine consanguinité entre les responsables de l'aviation civile en France. C'est un petit monde à part : les gens de la Direction générale de l'aviation civile (DGAC) passent facilement au cabinet du ministre et vice versa, les experts sont des anciens du BEA ou d'Air France. On a l'impression que certaines choses se règlent en famille. (Source : JDD)
Is anyone surprised?
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I have an open mind
That is the vestige of a kook, which you are sliding yourself into the category of.
You represent yourself as a 737-800 pilot, yet have been asked a simple question about the aircraft and ignored.
Meanwhile, as per Big Bad D, you do a great disservice, no I will go further, you *insult* professional people that have decades in this industry whom have invested much of their lives, often to their own detriment, in the safe operation of commercial jet transport category aircraft, as well as military, as well as non-commercial aircraft and non-commercial operations.
If you want to engage in serious informed discussion and debate then do so, armed with fact, not subjective conjecture.
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I've watched the program on the net. They went to interview the smallest of the airline's union ( not even 200 members for 4200 pilots ) who dare portraying themselves as the white night saving the day.
For the record, the main union representing over 2000 members never said a word until they felt they were losing grip. Just slimy politics over dead bodies.
They alledgedly forced Air France to change the pitot ???
What a load of tosh !! The decision was made on April 24th the job was to take 3 months for lack of parts on the manufacturer side.
For the rest, rather rich to see a lawyer almost delivering the " solution " to the plot with £ signs written all over his face.
This should have been aired on channel 9. It's not worth more than that.
For the record, the main union representing over 2000 members never said a word until they felt they were losing grip. Just slimy politics over dead bodies.
They alledgedly forced Air France to change the pitot ???
What a load of tosh !! The decision was made on April 24th the job was to take 3 months for lack of parts on the manufacturer side.
For the rest, rather rich to see a lawyer almost delivering the " solution " to the plot with £ signs written all over his face.
This should have been aired on channel 9. It's not worth more than that.
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So what is that answer on the ACN/PCN question ? .... been a while since it was asked, having trouble finding it in the MS Flight Sim manual ?
A reasonably authoritative document or two can be found on G in a matter of seconds...
B737-800 ACN = 51 with recommended ratio of 1.1 to 1.25 to listed PCN.
What's my prize ?
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Hi,
What a load of tosh !!
Can I correct you ?
They forced Air France to accelerate the remplacement of the Pitot Tubes on A330-A340.
And this was made in fews days despite the "lack of parts" from the manufacturer.
As you see .. sometime union (even small) can make miracles happend !!
They alledgedly forced Air France to change the pitot ???
What a load of tosh !! The decision was made on April 24th the job was to take 3 months for lack of parts on the manufacturer side.
What a load of tosh !! The decision was made on April 24th the job was to take 3 months for lack of parts on the manufacturer side.
What a load of tosh !!
Can I correct you ?
They forced Air France to accelerate the remplacement of the Pitot Tubes on A330-A340.
And this was made in fews days despite the "lack of parts" from the manufacturer.
As you see .. sometime union (even small) can make miracles happend !!
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[QUOTECan I correct you ?
They forced Air France to accelerate the remplacement of the Pitot Tubes on A330-A340.
And this was made in fews days despite the "lack of parts" from the manufacturer.
As you see .. sometime union (even small) can make miracles happend quote]
...............which proved to be totally useless following an incident ( 15 seconds ) that happened on a 320 coming from or going to Rome. The probe was a Thales second generation, the very same that was being installed on the 340 / 330 fleet.
The european authorities then ruled that at least one Goodrich probe should be installed on each aircraft.
Amazing what haste can do !!
What this report implies is that Air France is the only airline having suffered such incidents. We all know that's rubbish.
However, they are the only one having lost an aircraft. This report is only made of cheaply used family emotions, greedy lawyers ( like there is another kind !! ) speculations who are going to find it very difficult to make Airbus, AF and the french governement cough without some hard evidence that, for the moment, are lying at the bottom of the ocean.
The amazing thing in this report, is that ABC was a lot luckier than the french investigating judge in charge of the case. The brazilian chief pathologist saw it fitter to give some of the evidence to a reporter than to the French authorities. I am sure it was to ensure the manifestation of the truth)). It still remains a breach of international law.
They forced Air France to accelerate the remplacement of the Pitot Tubes on A330-A340.
And this was made in fews days despite the "lack of parts" from the manufacturer.
As you see .. sometime union (even small) can make miracles happend quote]
...............which proved to be totally useless following an incident ( 15 seconds ) that happened on a 320 coming from or going to Rome. The probe was a Thales second generation, the very same that was being installed on the 340 / 330 fleet.
The european authorities then ruled that at least one Goodrich probe should be installed on each aircraft.
Amazing what haste can do !!
What this report implies is that Air France is the only airline having suffered such incidents. We all know that's rubbish.
However, they are the only one having lost an aircraft. This report is only made of cheaply used family emotions, greedy lawyers ( like there is another kind !! ) speculations who are going to find it very difficult to make Airbus, AF and the french governement cough without some hard evidence that, for the moment, are lying at the bottom of the ocean.
The amazing thing in this report, is that ABC was a lot luckier than the french investigating judge in charge of the case. The brazilian chief pathologist saw it fitter to give some of the evidence to a reporter than to the French authorities. I am sure it was to ensure the manifestation of the truth
)). It still remains a breach of international law.
Last edited by Me Myself; 1st Nov 2009 at 06:45.
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Has there been much progress for Airbus or other private parties to start a new search for the recorders? Was some info on Wikipedia about it, but I really hope they are found one day soon.
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The small union people are talking about is ALTER and in fact there are two unions because SPAF is also a main charachter into the pitots story..sorry but i don't get informations via journalists !! that is to say Me myself is completely convinced he's the one knowing the truth, he looks at net interviews and gets enough informations to be able to say that a union is not powerful enough because they just represent 300 pilots ..well it is not because a union represents 2000 pilots that it is right versus smaller numbers unions ! Majority can be wrong..look at human history !!
Ok it has now been confirmed that an anglo/saxon company will audit AF operationnal dept..unions are forcing AF management to go deep inside the airline structure ...
Ok it has now been confirmed that an anglo/saxon company will audit AF operationnal dept..unions are forcing AF management to go deep inside the airline structure ...