Air France A330 "Crash Revelations" tonight
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Your sweeping generalisation of journalism, Teddy Robinson, is as full of top-of-your-head, made-up-on-the-spot poppycock as this programme appears to be. Bit like saying all pilots are as slack and careless as the pair in the Northwest cockpit. See how dumb and insulting you sound when you apply the same logic to another profession?
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FlyBoy....what is it, 20-odd posts and a username that clearly reflects your prejudices and dogmatic beliefs and comments such as:
"I am pilot, really, honestly"
sums it up really...
Now, please tell us how the A330 compares with the DC10?
Would it be too much to ask if you can provide a good technical discussion of the AF crash without resorting to childish comments?
So, the A330 is a perfectly safe aircraft - in very much the same was the 737-800 is a perfectly safe aircraft, I guess the pilots of Kenyan flight 507 and Turkish flight 1951thought of that prior to their crashes - to use your words.
In lieu of any technical discussion from you, I'll agree with "gravity enemy" and others that you're just a troll ... and apologies to the moderations for feeding you. Actually it would be very nice if you could actualy substantiate the point you're trying to make, as I and many others have no idea of what it would be...
By the way, you might be interested in the following extracts from the aviation-safety network's data base. I'll leave it up to others to discuss the particular incidents but it certainly refutes any argument that you can give regarding safety (perceived or real)..
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety Database > Type index > ASN Aviation Safety Database results
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety Database > Type index > ASN Aviation Safety Database results
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety Database > Type index > ASN Aviation Safety Database results
Now there are some very good threads here (see the technical discussions forum and previous AF crash related threads here for example) which do go into details about these various incidents. I suggest you read those before spouting some journalistic crap as being "truth".
Right, now I've got that off my mind, its back to the day job
fc101
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"I am pilot, really, honestly"
sums it up really...
Now, please tell us how the A330 compares with the DC10?
Would it be too much to ask if you can provide a good technical discussion of the AF crash without resorting to childish comments?
So, the A330 is a perfectly safe aircraft - in very much the same was the 737-800 is a perfectly safe aircraft, I guess the pilots of Kenyan flight 507 and Turkish flight 1951thought of that prior to their crashes - to use your words.
In lieu of any technical discussion from you, I'll agree with "gravity enemy" and others that you're just a troll ... and apologies to the moderations for feeding you. Actually it would be very nice if you could actualy substantiate the point you're trying to make, as I and many others have no idea of what it would be...
By the way, you might be interested in the following extracts from the aviation-safety network's data base. I'll leave it up to others to discuss the particular incidents but it certainly refutes any argument that you can give regarding safety (perceived or real)..
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety Database > Type index > ASN Aviation Safety Database results
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety Database > Type index > ASN Aviation Safety Database results
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety Database > Type index > ASN Aviation Safety Database results
Now there are some very good threads here (see the technical discussions forum and previous AF crash related threads here for example) which do go into details about these various incidents. I suggest you read those before spouting some journalistic crap as being "truth".
Right, now I've got that off my mind, its back to the day job
fc101
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Well there you go the pommy lawyers have solved that.
AF and EADS just need to deposit the cheque for damages into the solicitors trust account. The solicitors will quickly take their whack, plus of course reasonable charges for expenses and the poor relatives can split the 10% that is left between them. I hate lawyers far more than the media.
AF and EADS just need to deposit the cheque for damages into the solicitors trust account. The solicitors will quickly take their whack, plus of course reasonable charges for expenses and the poor relatives can split the 10% that is left between them. I hate lawyers far more than the media.
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With regards to the question, "will we ever know what actually happened" . I wonder do Air France and or Airbus already know, would it be possible to recreate a series of test either in the sim or with a computer program that would stream the same infomation that air france recieved during the last moments prior to power lose and or break up of the aircraft?
With regards to the question, "will we ever know what actually happened" . I wonder do Air France and or Airbus already know, would it be possible to recreate a series of test either in the sim or with a computer program that would stream the same infomation that air france recieved during the last moments prior to power lose and or break up of the aircraft?
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The Big Picture problem is -
1. Air France = French Owned = National Prestige
2. Airbus Industries = French Owned (Partially) = National Prestige
3. Airbus A330 outstanding orders around 328 A-330s = Billions of dollars
The Black Boxs will NEVER be found !!!
1. Air France = French Owned = National Prestige
2. Airbus Industries = French Owned (Partially) = National Prestige
3. Airbus A330 outstanding orders around 328 A-330s = Billions of dollars
The Black Boxs will NEVER be found !!!
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I am stunned by the aggresive nature of some responses to this post!
I thought the show was interesting as well as being sympathetic to the families of the victims.
Interesting post mortem results indicate that some passengers survived the impact. This tends to indicate an attempted ditching or similar low speed impact and post impact break up of the AC.
Further reports of the French pilots union telling their members not to fly Airbus 330's and 340's without replacement pitots raised unanswered issues (in the accident report).
What about the lack of real time data streaming from passenger aircraft, so as to obviate the need for FDRs and their attendant searches in these scenarios.
I thought the report asked questions that STILL haven't been answered, without sensationalising the incident or the jounalist.
gileraguy
I thought the show was interesting as well as being sympathetic to the families of the victims.
Interesting post mortem results indicate that some passengers survived the impact. This tends to indicate an attempted ditching or similar low speed impact and post impact break up of the AC.
Further reports of the French pilots union telling their members not to fly Airbus 330's and 340's without replacement pitots raised unanswered issues (in the accident report).
What about the lack of real time data streaming from passenger aircraft, so as to obviate the need for FDRs and their attendant searches in these scenarios.
I thought the report asked questions that STILL haven't been answered, without sensationalising the incident or the jounalist.
gileraguy
Last edited by gileraguy; 27th Oct 2009 at 22:07.
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Im not a pilot.But F.C. is a very reliable source of informative Journalism. What seems to be the problem with this thread is that the programe is aimed at lay-people such as myself.When the accident happened , we get a 2 min wrap-up and then the story dies.
The programe was not aimed a PP but for the rest of the population.They also covered the 'One-Two-Go' story some time back.Foreign Correspondent is at the opposite end to Fox News.
The programe was not aimed a PP but for the rest of the population.They also covered the 'One-Two-Go' story some time back.Foreign Correspondent is at the opposite end to Fox News.
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Add double engine failures to the A-330 list of this aircrafts problems.
gileraguy;
Thanks for your comments. I have to say that the ABC is a favourite of mine and I wondered if they would "get it right". Perhaps they have, in which case, hat's off to a rare event in media. The North American experience is anything but, however.
PJ2
Thanks for your comments. I have to say that the ABC is a favourite of mine and I wondered if they would "get it right". Perhaps they have, in which case, hat's off to a rare event in media. The North American experience is anything but, however.
PJ2
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More problems with A-330
All the tunnel vision, aggressive, Airbus A-330 supporters have now run for cover after MORE problems with this aircraft have been discovered. This time DOUBLE engine failure, see link above in previous post . . .
A double engine failure in a twin engine aircraft I would of thought to be pretty serious, especially when added to the list of "Challenges" the troubled A-330 is dealing with.
Their silence is deafening
Perhaps there may be something in what the enlightened ones like myself have been trying to highlight !
A double engine failure in a twin engine aircraft I would of thought to be pretty serious, especially when added to the list of "Challenges" the troubled A-330 is dealing with.
Their silence is deafening
Perhaps there may be something in what the enlightened ones like myself have been trying to highlight !
Last edited by FlyBoy737800; 28th Oct 2009 at 05:20.
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"Challenges"? "the troubled A-330"?
Please explain.
As in: Have no other aircraft have had problems crop up after 15 years in service?
The aircraft in question is neither "challenged" or "troubled".
It's a machine. Built by us, as in people, who invariably screw up, but being the intrepid sorts that we are, having survived for quite some time (that large brain, protein eating thing) usually overcome obstacles and move along.
I choose to look at each incident individually, because while it is easy to lump multiple incidents together, the variables usually indicate completely different circumstances leading to an event.
The old holes in the swiss cheese.
and they are NEVER the same.
I have no problem with he A-330. It's a great airplane.
You are, of course, allowed to believe differently, however, the record speaks for itself.
PB
Please explain.
As in: Have no other aircraft have had problems crop up after 15 years in service?
The aircraft in question is neither "challenged" or "troubled".
It's a machine. Built by us, as in people, who invariably screw up, but being the intrepid sorts that we are, having survived for quite some time (that large brain, protein eating thing) usually overcome obstacles and move along.
I choose to look at each incident individually, because while it is easy to lump multiple incidents together, the variables usually indicate completely different circumstances leading to an event.
The old holes in the swiss cheese.
and they are NEVER the same.
I have no problem with he A-330. It's a great airplane.
You are, of course, allowed to believe differently, however, the record speaks for itself.
PB
mercurydancer;
I tried to get my company interested in engaging the media. Rather than hide from flight safety issues I thought it was wise to address the issue head-on and tell the flying public what's being done to make everyone as safe as possible. The media may be the media but only if you let them be - they print what sells and I think an intelligent, engaging series of positive articles about this work would do well with most of the reading public - they're curious, after all. I think it is just smart business to be media-savvy.
Good to see you here, too.
PJ2
I tried to get my company interested in engaging the media. Rather than hide from flight safety issues I thought it was wise to address the issue head-on and tell the flying public what's being done to make everyone as safe as possible. The media may be the media but only if you let them be - they print what sells and I think an intelligent, engaging series of positive articles about this work would do well with most of the reading public - they're curious, after all. I think it is just smart business to be media-savvy.
Good to see you here, too.
PJ2
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Flyboy, all the tunnel vision, aggressive A330 detractors keep coming out with tenuous "evidence"!!
Dual engine failure.....remember the "challenges" a few triple crews faced when that happened to them. One in particular at Heathrow?!?!?!
Have a look at the number of 73's that have gone down over the years. Remember the "challenges" brought about by uncommanded rudder hard overs!!! (I know that per million flight hours the A330 has a higher accident rate but the 73 has been flying longer and with statistics you can prove anything!!)
Mate, look at any aircraft and it has/had problems. The A330 is not unique in that regard.
I think if anyone here has tunnel vision its you. Desperate to get the facts to fit your mental model that the A330 is a death trap. Others might disagree. Like pilots, airlines, regulators, aircraft manufacturers, travelling public etc etc.
If you want to you could build an argument for most aircraft having "challenges" and being troubled.
I don't fly the 330 so slag it off for all I care. Just don't claim to do it from an "enlightened" point of view please. This is how the press start stupid stories................
Dual engine failure.....remember the "challenges" a few triple crews faced when that happened to them. One in particular at Heathrow?!?!?!
Have a look at the number of 73's that have gone down over the years. Remember the "challenges" brought about by uncommanded rudder hard overs!!! (I know that per million flight hours the A330 has a higher accident rate but the 73 has been flying longer and with statistics you can prove anything!!)
Mate, look at any aircraft and it has/had problems. The A330 is not unique in that regard.
I think if anyone here has tunnel vision its you. Desperate to get the facts to fit your mental model that the A330 is a death trap. Others might disagree. Like pilots, airlines, regulators, aircraft manufacturers, travelling public etc etc.
If you want to you could build an argument for most aircraft having "challenges" and being troubled.
I don't fly the 330 so slag it off for all I care. Just don't claim to do it from an "enlightened" point of view please. This is how the press start stupid stories................
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Ref " the A330 is a death trap "
" - the A330 is a death trap. Others might disagree. Like pilots, airlines, regulators, aircraft manufacturers, travelling public etc etc." - one post only.
I appreciate your measured response one post only . .BUT
many of the parties you list above have vested interests to make SURE !! the Airbus A-330 is kept in the best possible light at all times
Big picture stuff .... peel back the layers and see for yourself.
I appreciate your measured response one post only . .BUT
many of the parties you list above have vested interests to make SURE !! the Airbus A-330 is kept in the best possible light at all times
Big picture stuff .... peel back the layers and see for yourself.
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I have. I see an aircraft that has had a few problems. I stand by my argument that all aircraft have problems. If you dig around each aircraft type you could build an argument that each is troubled.
I agree some parties may want the A330 to be presented in the best light. I do understand what you are getting at here. I would very much hope however that the majority will want problems found and fixed!!!
Which should really include airbus as if they keep splashing in with what turn out to be fundamental flaws who would ever buy any aircraft from them in the future! I think all aircraft manufactures "could" potentially be guilty of presenting aircraft in the best light or trying to put a spin on accident reports.
But ok, here is your chance. Maybe I haven't really peeled back the layers. Maybe myself along with others have missed something.
If you are enlightened you have obviously done a lot of research on the matter. Therefore can you please peel back the layers for me so I can make sure I haven't missed anything. Can you list all your evidence. List all the problems the 330 has had. Not including pilot error unless that error was brought about by poor cockpit design.
It would then be interesting to compare this list to other types in use at the moment. List the accidents/incidents they have had and why in similar cases the A330 incident is worse.
Its your chance now to win me over. No "peel back the layers" type arguments. Give me cold hard facts. I am genuinely interested.
You will have to be quick though as I have to report in 2 hours from now but that should be enough as you sound like you have already done this research to allow you to come to your conclusion.
I eagerly await your post.
I agree some parties may want the A330 to be presented in the best light. I do understand what you are getting at here. I would very much hope however that the majority will want problems found and fixed!!!
Which should really include airbus as if they keep splashing in with what turn out to be fundamental flaws who would ever buy any aircraft from them in the future! I think all aircraft manufactures "could" potentially be guilty of presenting aircraft in the best light or trying to put a spin on accident reports.
But ok, here is your chance. Maybe I haven't really peeled back the layers. Maybe myself along with others have missed something.
If you are enlightened you have obviously done a lot of research on the matter. Therefore can you please peel back the layers for me so I can make sure I haven't missed anything. Can you list all your evidence. List all the problems the 330 has had. Not including pilot error unless that error was brought about by poor cockpit design.
It would then be interesting to compare this list to other types in use at the moment. List the accidents/incidents they have had and why in similar cases the A330 incident is worse.
Its your chance now to win me over. No "peel back the layers" type arguments. Give me cold hard facts. I am genuinely interested.
You will have to be quick though as I have to report in 2 hours from now but that should be enough as you sound like you have already done this research to allow you to come to your conclusion.
I eagerly await your post.
FlyBoy
I would have thought as a journo with some powers in research that you would have done your homework for my learned colleague Titan 404 on the D&G thread.
This was the homework and I have already given you some clues...pls send answer in your next post.
Are you really a B737-800 pilot? If you are you would know what the ACN is for the B737-800 and its relationship to PCN. If you can answer this question then we can all presume you are as you say. If you can’t then I suspect you are a journalist trolling this forum and therefore can be ignored.
You sir are a barking up the wrong tree...or maybe just barking.
Stop wasting our time.
I would have thought as a journo with some powers in research that you would have done your homework for my learned colleague Titan 404 on the D&G thread.
This was the homework and I have already given you some clues...pls send answer in your next post.
Are you really a B737-800 pilot? If you are you would know what the ACN is for the B737-800 and its relationship to PCN. If you can answer this question then we can all presume you are as you say. If you can’t then I suspect you are a journalist trolling this forum and therefore can be ignored.
You sir are a barking up the wrong tree...or maybe just barking.
Stop wasting our time.
ABC show - Foreign Correspondent video
PJ2
25 minutes, 7 seconds of video (30 minutes show) available from:
France - AF 447 - Foreign Correspondent - ABC
Short outline with "play video" just below the photo of the reporter
cheers
layman
25 minutes, 7 seconds of video (30 minutes show) available from:
France - AF 447 - Foreign Correspondent - ABC
Short outline with "play video" just below the photo of the reporter
cheers
layman