Air France pilots make headline news
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Me Myself - you're right, there has been some serious thread creep at work; I only wanted to correct some misconceptions on both sides of the argument whenever the language issue turns up.
Back to the topic: whoever leaked the internal memo (either management or someone in the pilot workforce) must have their own agenda. Trouble is, now that it's in the open, both sides will play to the public, to try to score points and be seen to be doing something. While there is an argument for not keeping things under wraps, one can guess that nothing much will be achieved on technical matters under the media spotlight. The originators of the memo must have been incredibly naive to think that in the age of the internet, it wouldn't be leaked faster than you can press the "forward" key on your browser... unless of course that was the idea all along! I agree that this has put both sides (but mainly the pilots) under incredible pressure to deliver (or not to foul up).
Of course, in the absence of further flight safety occurences, the issue might just disappear from the public gaze, but the damage is done.
However, in due time we can expect the conclusions of the Delta safety audit to become public in the same way, and (if their track record with Korean Air is anything to go by) they tend not to mince their words.
Cheers
Back to the topic: whoever leaked the internal memo (either management or someone in the pilot workforce) must have their own agenda. Trouble is, now that it's in the open, both sides will play to the public, to try to score points and be seen to be doing something. While there is an argument for not keeping things under wraps, one can guess that nothing much will be achieved on technical matters under the media spotlight. The originators of the memo must have been incredibly naive to think that in the age of the internet, it wouldn't be leaked faster than you can press the "forward" key on your browser... unless of course that was the idea all along! I agree that this has put both sides (but mainly the pilots) under incredible pressure to deliver (or not to foul up).
Of course, in the absence of further flight safety occurences, the issue might just disappear from the public gaze, but the damage is done.
However, in due time we can expect the conclusions of the Delta safety audit to become public in the same way, and (if their track record with Korean Air is anything to go by) they tend not to mince their words.
Cheers
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I think correct terminology and readbacks are important in these bilingual envoronments as well. So many people read back all sorts of rubbish that is not required and add their own little tid-bits to each transmission as well.
'XXX123 turn right 330, descend 3000 cleared ILS Rwy X'
The Brit pilot read back:
'Turn right heading 330 degrees, descend altitude 3000feet, cleared to intercept localizer, when established localizer descend ILS'
As far as I am concerned that is not a suitable readback.
I am 100% in favour of everyone using standard phraseology in English but I also feel it is important to read back what you are told in a standard manner - understanding that English is not everyone's mother tongue and therefore not giving ones own overly verbose version of what you are told to do. Of course UK R/T is so long winded that we get used to it but that is not the universal standard and I don't think UK style RT it in a foreign land is a good thing.
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Totally disagree with your disagreement I am afraid.
Normally he SHOULD say 330 "degrees"
Normally he SHOULD say descend "altitude 3000ft"
In this instance it is the controllers shortened form that is incorrect, not the verbose, but technically correct pilot version.
As regards the ILS instruction. I believe the pilot version read back is motivated by the difference between the British system, where you are habitually cleared to intercept the LOC but NOT follow the GP until specifically cleared, vs the European norm of simply being cleared for the ILS.
Many British pilots are often reluctant to follow the glide without some specific prompting from ATC (or me
) the extended readback was, I feel, merely a substitute that allowed him to descend on the glide without being specifically authorised as in UK, with at least the "comfort zone" of having announced clearly his interpretation/intention following ATC's instructions.
Edited to say, I see you have edited your post, me too.
I recently landed with QNH 20Hpa/Mb out, due to (among other things) foreshortened ATC when cleared to the first altitude. Giving the QNH when first clearing an aircraft to an altitude doesn't always happen out of blighty, and can be a life saver (or loser
)
As for English, I do not see any alternative to a common language (and do indeed appreciate I am fortunate it happens to be my native one) In a mixed crew scenario too, one must adopt a common language. When you have flight-deck of different nationality, mixed with CC of two different nationality, and no-one speaking all 3 languages ? talking to ATC whose first lingo is yet another. . . what to do ? but I realise I am the lucky one.
To return,briefly, to the thread subject.
Glass houses, and all that, come to mind.
Safety lapses , identified, but uncorrected, in the past are the fault of who ? the failure to stop them in their tracks is the fault of who ?
Your management should answer that one and take a hard look in the mirror before firing from the hip
Normally he SHOULD say 330 "degrees"
Normally he SHOULD say descend "altitude 3000ft"
In this instance it is the controllers shortened form that is incorrect, not the verbose, but technically correct pilot version.
As regards the ILS instruction. I believe the pilot version read back is motivated by the difference between the British system, where you are habitually cleared to intercept the LOC but NOT follow the GP until specifically cleared, vs the European norm of simply being cleared for the ILS.
Many British pilots are often reluctant to follow the glide without some specific prompting from ATC (or me
) the extended readback was, I feel, merely a substitute that allowed him to descend on the glide without being specifically authorised as in UK, with at least the "comfort zone" of having announced clearly his interpretation/intention following ATC's instructions.Edited to say, I see you have edited your post, me too.
I recently landed with QNH 20Hpa/Mb out, due to (among other things) foreshortened ATC when cleared to the first altitude. Giving the QNH when first clearing an aircraft to an altitude doesn't always happen out of blighty, and can be a life saver (or loser
)As for English, I do not see any alternative to a common language (and do indeed appreciate I am fortunate it happens to be my native one) In a mixed crew scenario too, one must adopt a common language. When you have flight-deck of different nationality, mixed with CC of two different nationality, and no-one speaking all 3 languages ? talking to ATC whose first lingo is yet another. . . what to do ? but I realise I am the lucky one.
To return,briefly, to the thread subject.
Glass houses, and all that, come to mind.
Safety lapses , identified, but uncorrected, in the past are the fault of who ? the failure to stop them in their tracks is the fault of who ?
Your management should answer that one and take a hard look in the mirror before firing from the hip
Last edited by captplaystation; 26th Oct 2009 at 12:14.
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Captplaystation
I'm not sure it is an ICAO recommendation or requirement to use 'degrees' after a heading so I don't believe the controller was incorrect. Please feel free to correct me but I am under the impression that this is a UK-only habit and that is why controllers across the rest of the world don't use the suffix 'degrees'?
I maintain that the overly verbose 'when established localizer blah blah blah' should have been read back as 'cleared ILS'. This is the standard clearance that the controller gave and this is what they would have been expecting to hear back. The pilot reading back their own super extended version to a person who may not have perfect English outside of standard phrases isn't a good idea in my book.
As I said, I am in favour of everyone using standard English on the RT to aid SA but it should be standard and us Brits shouldn't be making it unnecessarily verbose.
PS when you say 'edited your post' was you referring to me - as I haven't edited anything?!?
I maintain that the overly verbose 'when established localizer blah blah blah' should have been read back as 'cleared ILS'. This is the standard clearance that the controller gave and this is what they would have been expecting to hear back. The pilot reading back their own super extended version to a person who may not have perfect English outside of standard phrases isn't a good idea in my book.
As I said, I am in favour of everyone using standard English on the RT to aid SA but it should be standard and us Brits shouldn't be making it unnecessarily verbose.
PS when you say 'edited your post' was you referring to me - as I haven't edited anything?!?
'XXX123 turn right 330, descend 3000 cleared ILS Rwy X'
...........I now wait to see that shot to bits ha ha. After it has been, I think we should try to drag the thread even further off track, it is good fun.
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Maybe finger trouble (oops) on my part , I missed the end part initially.
Totally agree, some UK pilots should "get out more" and cleared for the ILS is just that , cleared for the "ILS "I.E LOC & GS, but the wee lambs sometimes need reassurance, us old farts know what the foreigners mean
I think "degrees" "altitude" "feet" etc is technically ICAO correct, but don't have anything to hand to back up that opinion.
Think QNH on first alt is a must, acquired recently the (psychological) scars and bruises to justify that opinion too.
Sorry, more thread drift, "vive la france" I say (just to head in the "bon cap")
or is it "bonne cap" ? Duh
Totally agree, some UK pilots should "get out more" and cleared for the ILS is just that , cleared for the "ILS "I.E LOC & GS, but the wee lambs sometimes need reassurance, us old farts know what the foreigners mean
I think "degrees" "altitude" "feet" etc is technically ICAO correct, but don't have anything to hand to back up that opinion.
Think QNH on first alt is a must, acquired recently the (psychological) scars and bruises to justify that opinion too.
Sorry, more thread drift, "vive la france" I say (just to head in the "bon cap")
or is it "bonne cap" ? Duh
Speaking your native tongue and the language you are most familiar with in your native country reduces safety?
even in Latin America I speak English ---I don't have to
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Hi,
Back to topic
Or I missed something but they made headline news not about french language despite the original headline news was written in french.
Air France pilots make headline news
Or I missed something but they made headline news not about french language despite the original headline news was written in french.
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To drag, briefly, this thread back on-topic: Pilots may disagree, but this episode reflects quite well on Air France, I reckon. Mr Pontificator over at insidetraveller sort of nails it:
"A serious accident should be an opportunity for a company to examine itself from top to bottom. It is good that the current management feels brave enough to take on the pilots."
This is perhaps giving it an unecessarily combatitive spin, but overall I agree, though I would rather see it as Air France management rising to the challenge in a way not often seen at similar British institutions.
"A serious accident should be an opportunity for a company to examine itself from top to bottom. It is good that the current management feels brave enough to take on the pilots."
This is perhaps giving it an unecessarily combatitive spin, but overall I agree, though I would rather see it as Air France management rising to the challenge in a way not often seen at similar British institutions.
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Could I urge everyone who hasn't seen it to take the time to watch the link that Puglistic Animus has given us above.
First time I watched it, I had goosebumps, and breathed a massive sigh of relief when (thank God!!) the freighter pilot refused to take the instructions of the increasinly rattled ATCO.
That clip should be included in every pilot - and ATC - training course in this world.
I know this will offend some, but perhaps particularly in France.
First time I watched it, I had goosebumps, and breathed a massive sigh of relief when (thank God!!) the freighter pilot refused to take the instructions of the increasinly rattled ATCO.
That clip should be included in every pilot - and ATC - training course in this world.
I know this will offend some, but perhaps particularly in France.
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Amen to that, if ever anyone needed evidence for mandating the installation of ground radar at major airports (if Linate wasn't evidence enough) this is it.
Also, perhaps the lady controller should be "encouraged" to be just a little bit less "go minded".
Thank God the dudes at the holding point could appreciate the crock of sh1t going on around them, well done guys
Also, perhaps the lady controller should be "encouraged" to be just a little bit less "go minded".
Thank God the dudes at the holding point could appreciate the crock of sh1t going on around them, well done guys
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This forum is blatantly anti-french and therefore lacking in credibility.
If you insult the french, in a way never any jews, moslems or even worst, homosexuals would, fine, your posts would say forever.
If by misfortune you try to answer and to get some points equal in a factly manner, your posts get censored immediately.
For everybody to know.
If you insult the french, in a way never any jews, moslems or even worst, homosexuals would, fine, your posts would say forever.
If by misfortune you try to answer and to get some points equal in a factly manner, your posts get censored immediately.
For everybody to know.
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I know this will offend some, but perhaps particularly in France.
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recce,
your post was deleted only because it answered a racist post that had already been deleted.
BTW, off topic posts will be deleted too. If anyone wishes to discuss language issues in aviation feel free to open a dedicated thread, but stop hijacking this one.
Thank you.
your post was deleted only because it answered a racist post that had already been deleted.
BTW, off topic posts will be deleted too. If anyone wishes to discuss language issues in aviation feel free to open a dedicated thread, but stop hijacking this one.
Thank you.
Thread Starter
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Dear Moderator
I thought you were the sleeping beauty for a momment.
I started this thread not to discuss how wonderfully the english.................speak english and the french so appallingly ( according to this thread ) but rather in the hope some people would maybe ( not holding my breath anymore for fear of chocking ) have something interesting to say about all this.
This AF management paper came in french and if anyone has the time to translate it, be my guest.
The interesting fact, as pointed by Fouga, is it was :
1/ Written in a day and age where the faintest of wispers ends up deafening the universe.
2/ After years of .............non management
3/ Dito the above + union forgetting where their right place was in defending the absolutly undefendable.
In this sad affair, both parties are fighting in public to regain their long lost virginity and this is turning into a bloody fight with the main union now trailing behind the smaller one's like a very tired seagull ( Bligh me, I sound like Cantona !! ) in claiming the heads of the letter's authors.
The cherry on the cake will now be ................a strike as advocated by more and more which, no doubt, will be the right answer for a disorientated and money losing airline.
This is looking more and more like a couple starting a fight in a posh restaurant in front of stunned customers.
How the KLM pilots can watch this knowing they risk sinking with the Titanic is beyhond me.
I thought you were the sleeping beauty for a momment.
I started this thread not to discuss how wonderfully the english.................speak english and the french so appallingly ( according to this thread ) but rather in the hope some people would maybe ( not holding my breath anymore for fear of chocking ) have something interesting to say about all this.
This AF management paper came in french and if anyone has the time to translate it, be my guest.
The interesting fact, as pointed by Fouga, is it was :
1/ Written in a day and age where the faintest of wispers ends up deafening the universe.
2/ After years of .............non management
3/ Dito the above + union forgetting where their right place was in defending the absolutly undefendable.
In this sad affair, both parties are fighting in public to regain their long lost virginity and this is turning into a bloody fight with the main union now trailing behind the smaller one's like a very tired seagull ( Bligh me, I sound like Cantona !! ) in claiming the heads of the letter's authors.
The cherry on the cake will now be ................a strike as advocated by more and more which, no doubt, will be the right answer for a disorientated and money losing airline.
This is looking more and more like a couple starting a fight in a posh restaurant in front of stunned customers.
How the KLM pilots can watch this knowing they risk sinking with the Titanic is beyhond me.
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How the KLM pilots can watch this knowing they risk sinking with the Titanic is beyhond me.
in the company .Actually I was hoping for a discussion comparing accident rates of KLM AF, DLH and BA or any other serious discussion whether an 360° audit of Air France was warrented.
The first conclusion of my statistical analysis of accident/incident reports: Taking the Concorde out of service, was a good one! There is a second obvious one, but I am not telling you it.
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The first conclusion of my statistical analysis of accident/incident reports: Taking the Concorde out of service, was a good one! There is a second obvious one, but I am not telling you it. 
Flight safety is not based on incident/accident history, but on its forecasting. Until accidents happens they aren't in the airline's statistics. Evaluating an airline safety is not only being a Math Fox, it's mainly having a deep understanding of the internal safety culture, procedures, training and maintenance, to name a few.
You can still post your comments on some "daily sun" kinda blog as you'll get an audience for such deep analysis.
