Air France pilots make headline news
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Yes they are the same group and that's why we can't ask KLM people po point out what's wrong with AF..despite the fact the are "able people", on top of it i've always thought this is one of the most friendly people on earth, just give a try to a dutch girl ;-))
I do consider that british are really what we need to investigate the system, i just have a very very good opinion of the art of flying on the other side of the channel, we could also cross the border with germany where records are excellent ..but you know what ? french like to do their own things they way they feel, and they strongly believe they are the ones who are right ....
Our president Sarkozy is just too french now, his hungarian blood has vanished away ....sad ...
I do consider that british are really what we need to investigate the system, i just have a very very good opinion of the art of flying on the other side of the channel, we could also cross the border with germany where records are excellent ..but you know what ? french like to do their own things they way they feel, and they strongly believe they are the ones who are right ....
Our president Sarkozy is just too french now, his hungarian blood has vanished away ....sad ...
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I teach Aviation English to French ATC and Pilots and am amazed at the high level of English which they achieve - much better than my French! They certainly achieve true ICAO level 4 and 5 and some even 6.
Nobody would disagree that everybody speaking the same language on the frequency would improve situational awareness, however ICAO recomendations allow the French (and Spanish and Italian and Russian and Chinese ....) to use their own language so just get over it.
While we are at it, the English mother tongue ATC and Pilots could make an effort to use their own language correctly using an accent which is intelligable to the aviation community and giving a thought to the tremendous effort it takes for a non-native speaker to achieve even level 4.
Nobody would disagree that everybody speaking the same language on the frequency would improve situational awareness, however ICAO recomendations allow the French (and Spanish and Italian and Russian and Chinese ....) to use their own language so just get over it.
While we are at it, the English mother tongue ATC and Pilots could make an effort to use their own language correctly using an accent which is intelligable to the aviation community and giving a thought to the tremendous effort it takes for a non-native speaker to achieve even level 4.
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I think AF and KLM are in the same group. Why do results seem to differ so much between the 2 of them, it cannot only come down to cultural differences
The big cultural difference (with a great impact on CRM) is that the Dutch (especially in the area around Amsterdam) are quite anti-authoritarian. A manager who just orders his subordinates around will be asked to motivate his decisions pretty soon. On the other hand, people on the work floor are not shy to warn when something threatens to go wrong. As preventive action managers schedule "meetings" where people can spout their issues so the manager can deal with them before they become problems.
The French culture is more one of respect for authority and good relations with the people around you. Potentially angering a colleague by saying he did something wrong is bad for the relationship. Don't dare to offend your chef! So problems often tend to simmer, unless someone finds out, leading to a French-style vocal explosion. It might require a common trip to a tavern to mend the damage to the relation over a few glasses of wine.
I think it is cultural differences
Having worked with both Dutch and French people over many years..
The Dutch realise that not many people speak their language, accept the fact and get on with trading and working in a world where English is the generally accepted language of business
( I am not saying this for any other reason other than that it is a fact of business life)
The French , in greater part, do not accept this.
They take it as an affront to, a slight on, their own language
The French love their own language (as do I) but most ( esp the (aristocracy!) will never accept the fact that the English language has surpassed their own as the major language of business communciation.
They "know" their language is better .
There is also a touch of Anglophobia about it too.
As ever, the old Anglo-French love-hate relationship surfaces whenever the issue of "language" arises .
Sorry to say, I also feel the language issue is related to the French arrogance and obsession with their mother tongue.
They just feel it is affront to the French language to replace it, or in many cases, even add to it, with English.
Just an opinion formed over many years!!
Having worked with both Dutch and French people over many years..
The Dutch realise that not many people speak their language, accept the fact and get on with trading and working in a world where English is the generally accepted language of business
( I am not saying this for any other reason other than that it is a fact of business life)
The French , in greater part, do not accept this.
They take it as an affront to, a slight on, their own language
The French love their own language (as do I) but most ( esp the (aristocracy!) will never accept the fact that the English language has surpassed their own as the major language of business communciation.
They "know" their language is better .
There is also a touch of Anglophobia about it too.
As ever, the old Anglo-French love-hate relationship surfaces whenever the issue of "language" arises .
Sorry to say, I also feel the language issue is related to the French arrogance and obsession with their mother tongue.
They just feel it is affront to the French language to replace it, or in many cases, even add to it, with English.
Just an opinion formed over many years!!
Nobody would disagree that everybody speaking the same language on the frequency would improve situational awareness
So, it is not necessary to always speak in English, nor in your native language, you just have to use the brains god gave you and know when to use which. Its that simple and there is no argument to this.
I think correct terminology and readbacks are important in these bilingual envoronments as well. So many people read back all sorts of rubbish that is not required and add their own little tid-bits to each transmission as well.
Discipline is the key. Transmit only what is required using the correct terminology and a lot of the problems are solved.
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"Me myself" you make it too personnal against "french frogs"
Obviously, as much as you like to do things your way...............it ain't working............or is it ?
You know, I really do not care where things come from............as long as they work.
You ( generic of course, don't fret ) resent having your faults pointed to you ?? Smell the coffee, nobody does !! But one listens anyway as you might learn a thing or 2.
I've had a yellow card handed to me in the sim a short while back and I didn't like it one bit. Thing is.............the guy was right............and I was wrong. You can't beat that, can you ? You just make the best of it, take the time to swallow your pride and move on.
If memory serves, I think one calls that ..........er..........humility. You guys understand humiliation.
While we're at it, you know as well as I do that there has been some cases, before 447, where things that happened were not dealt with by management. It was, with everybody's consent ( management & unions ) swiftly swept under the carpet and everybody kept on living forever after.
Well, keep on doing this and bad things happen, and I'm not thinking about 447.
This is the very and only issue. having this letter made public could have the street pundit think AF daily life is a freak show. Not the case. A lot of incidents have happened due to mechanical failures, sometimes over the ocean, or Siberia and were very professionally handled by the crews.
AF, in order to buy peace, has never been able to get rid of the bad apples and in a way, this letter is a deliberate mud sling into the union's face. This is what is at stake here.
Look, if I think about all the times I ended up having to write an Air safety Report, each time I had only myself to blame, not that I conciously disregarded SOP's, but still, it was my fault. Admitting it hasn't killed me so far and I can still walk my street with my chin up.
You can pick up any nationality for your audit, as I was saying above, the ventilator will still cover you (and management ) with a generous and equal measure of you know what for the above reasons.
Fouga is absolutly right, there is a lot more than meets the eye and there is a mamothal portion of sleezy politics in this affair............on both parts.
As always, it is the poor bystander who will be hit.
I suggest we just sit on the side and watch while the dogs get at each other's throats.
If anything, now it has been made public, this letter has only added more pressure on AF pilot's shoulders. Better not stuff up now.
Last edited by Me Myself; 25th Oct 2009 at 16:15.
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About the difference in culture.
Culture is a factor and a big on at that but,
It is by no means not manageable.
like Mathfox already said;
Is maybe correct now but hasn't always been the case.
Everybody here surely remembers and studied the effects of bad crew communications which was a great contributor to the Tenerife KLM-PanAm disaster in '77.
Also inability to speak English is more indicative of bad selection and subsequently bad training than purely culturally determined.
Eg.
I wouldn't exactly call the Japanese population proficient in the use of English but their Pilots sure seem to do things better than most of the other far east carriers.
Also they have adapted a more western style of working when it comes to cockpit procedures and the weight of the co-pilot in the decision loop, which isn't exactly a small feat given the importance of seniority in the rest of their working culture.
It is by no means not manageable.
like Mathfox already said;
The big cultural difference (with a great impact on CRM) is that the Dutch (especially in the area around Amsterdam) are quite anti-authoritarian. A manager who just orders his subordinates around will be asked to motivate his decisions pretty soon. On the other hand, people on the work floor are not shy to warn when something threatens to go wrong. As preventive action managers schedule "meetings" where people can spout their issues so the manager can deal with them before they become problems.
The French culture is more one of respect for authority and good relations with the people around you. Potentially angering a colleague by saying he did something wrong is bad for the relationship. Don't dare to offend your chef! So problems often tend to simmer, unless someone finds out, leading to a French-style vocal explosion.
The French culture is more one of respect for authority and good relations with the people around you. Potentially angering a colleague by saying he did something wrong is bad for the relationship. Don't dare to offend your chef! So problems often tend to simmer, unless someone finds out, leading to a French-style vocal explosion.
Everybody here surely remembers and studied the effects of bad crew communications which was a great contributor to the Tenerife KLM-PanAm disaster in '77.
Also inability to speak English is more indicative of bad selection and subsequently bad training than purely culturally determined.
Eg.
I wouldn't exactly call the Japanese population proficient in the use of English but their Pilots sure seem to do things better than most of the other far east carriers.
Also they have adapted a more western style of working when it comes to cockpit procedures and the weight of the co-pilot in the decision loop, which isn't exactly a small feat given the importance of seniority in the rest of their working culture.
Also they have adapted a more western style of working when it comes to cockpit procedures and the weight of the co-pilot in the decision loop, which isn't exactly a small feat given the importance of seniority in the rest of their working culture.
Rigid flight deck discipline solves so so many of the problems out there.
You want to chop and change and mix things up a bit??? Fine, go hire a C172 on saturday, but doing that in an airliner does, statistically, and in my personal experience, increase the rate and number of incidents.
The French insist on speaking French, when the lingua franca for aviation, commerce, technology and communication is American (English). But the Americans persist in using feet, pounds, inches of mercury, degrees Fahrenheit and so on when most of the rest of the world is metric. Remember that 767 that ran out of fuel after the uplift figure had been incorrectly loaded in pounds rather than kilos (the totaliser was u/s as I recall).
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Framer donīt take this personally!
Earlier you wrote:
"Nobody would disagree that everybody speaking the same language on the frequency would improve situational awarness
Alberto disagrees apparently"
On the contrary! What I wrote is that the common language should always be used when necessary (obsviously SA included), and I strongly defend this! You obviuosly didnīt understand any of what I wrote, and decided to attack me for some un-apparent reason!
Iīm just pointing out what I happen to believe, nothing in what I wrote was directed to you, so please donīt take ir personally, that was not my intention.
Obviously your brain and mine are the result of evolution, but thats not what is being discussed is it?
My reply was not related to SA, but rather to the fact that you donīt approve others speaking any language other than English, correct?
Just to put it out there, I AGREE (second time im writting this), that English should be used when there could a conflict (hence creating a good SA atmosphere), but by no means should English be used at all times, its not at all necessary.
Once again, please dont take this personally, iīm not trying to argue with anybody, just defending my point of view with criteria.
Earlier you wrote:
"Nobody would disagree that everybody speaking the same language on the frequency would improve situational awarness
Alberto disagrees apparently"
On the contrary! What I wrote is that the common language should always be used when necessary (obsviously SA included), and I strongly defend this! You obviuosly didnīt understand any of what I wrote, and decided to attack me for some un-apparent reason!
Iīm just pointing out what I happen to believe, nothing in what I wrote was directed to you, so please donīt take ir personally, that was not my intention.
Obviously your brain and mine are the result of evolution, but thats not what is being discussed is it?
My reply was not related to SA, but rather to the fact that you donīt approve others speaking any language other than English, correct?
Just to put it out there, I AGREE (second time im writting this), that English should be used when there could a conflict (hence creating a good SA atmosphere), but by no means should English be used at all times, its not at all necessary.
Once again, please dont take this personally, iīm not trying to argue with anybody, just defending my point of view with criteria.
Last edited by albertofdz; 25th Oct 2009 at 13:57.
Discorde said:
"The French insist on speaking French, when the lingua franca for aviation, commerce, technology and communication is American (English). But the Americans persist in using feet, pounds, inches of mercury, degrees Fahrenheit and so on when most of the rest of the world is metric. Remember that 767 that ran out of fuel after the uplift figure had been incorrectly loaded in pounds rather than kilos (the totaliser was u/s as I recall)."
The people of Gimli, Manitoba, remember it well.
The French in Canada use avoirdupois too, but our laws also allow for ancient French measurements pre-metric in land transactions. They all speak acceptable English to American visitors, but not to us English.
I think it is totally a mindset issue. Funny how the Norwegians, Dutch, Danish, etc speak English, maybe they learned it when the English and Americans were there stopping them from having to learn German! Funny how the French didn't learn the same lesson.
"The French insist on speaking French, when the lingua franca for aviation, commerce, technology and communication is American (English). But the Americans persist in using feet, pounds, inches of mercury, degrees Fahrenheit and so on when most of the rest of the world is metric. Remember that 767 that ran out of fuel after the uplift figure had been incorrectly loaded in pounds rather than kilos (the totaliser was u/s as I recall)."
The people of Gimli, Manitoba, remember it well.
The French in Canada use avoirdupois too, but our laws also allow for ancient French measurements pre-metric in land transactions. They all speak acceptable English to American visitors, but not to us English.
I think it is totally a mindset issue. Funny how the Norwegians, Dutch, Danish, etc speak English, maybe they learned it when the English and Americans were there stopping them from having to learn German! Funny how the French didn't learn the same lesson.
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Language ATC uses
In Quebec, Canada, as well as in Ottawa, French speaking pilots can speak French to controllers. Ever been to Spain, or Latin America, or South America? ATC speaks Spanish. The same goes for many, many, many countries in the world. It does not affect security one bit. On the contrary. When most of the traffic speaks language "Z" and most of the pilots also speak the same language "Z", and yet controllers and pilots are both forced to speak English to each other, it does not help safety one bit.
How would American pilots feel, if say French had been the international ATC language and US pilots flying in US Domestic Airspace were forced to learn French in order to fly aircraft inside their own country?
It looks different when looked at it in that manner doesn't it ?
How would American pilots feel, if say French had been the international ATC language and US pilots flying in US Domestic Airspace were forced to learn French in order to fly aircraft inside their own country?
It looks different when looked at it in that manner doesn't it ?
Last edited by Minorite invisible; 27th Oct 2009 at 17:32. Reason: Edited for clarity
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Originally Posted by Minorite invisible
How would American pilots feel, if say French had been the international ATC language and US pilots flying in US Domestic Airspace were forced to learn French in order to fly aircraft inside their own country?
It's mostly about pride and feelings, 2 things IMHO that shouldn't enter the equation.
The other official languages can be perfectly used in communication with ATC but it should be done conditionally.
If in heavily used ,like around commercial international traffic airports or in continuously busy airspace, English should be the norm.
Nobody cares what language is used between traffic and tower as long as there is no commercial international traffic involved.
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Originally Posted by Minorite invisible
How would American pilots feel, if say French had been the international ATC language and US pilots flying in US Domestic Airspace were forced to learn French in order to fly aircraft inside their own country?
How would American pilots feel, if say French had been the international ATC language and US pilots flying in US Domestic Airspace were forced to learn French in order to fly aircraft inside their own country?
But, the universe in which French pilots actually operate is one where they are required to speak ENGLISH. If pilots for whom English is not their 1st language would accept that possibly English is a more universal datum than their local Pingu in terms of safety then the aviation world would be that extra bit safer - lest of course the egos of pilots/ATC where English is not their 1st language is compromised. In which case their egos are more important?
Maybe it would be safer now if every French/Italian/German/Spanish/Greek/US/UK pilots were required to speak Contonese instead? FFS?
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Caudillo, if we use your logic, we'd all need to pick up some "basic aviation" Mandarin, Japanese, Spanish, Portugese, Russian, Arabic, Hebrew, 'merican
etc. - for the two or three trips per annum each of us may do into each region.
As for the post above saying a common language is only needed when it's necessary (???): who's to dictate when it becomes necessary?
I'd like to suggest that when we're all scooting about the sky between 150 and 450 knots, even if the use of the second language doesn't cause confusion and reduce SA (which few I think would argue it doesn't [but I see above that there are some]), it causes unnecessary delay. (How many people have waited, waited, waited for the French language version of the CDG ATIS to do its loop before listening to the English language version - when they could be doing something far more productive in an often very busy environment?)
It's even more counterproductive when you hear ATC and another aircraft conducting a (sometimes long) conversation in French that may (how are you to know?) have some bearing on what you should - or should not -be doing.
Someone's said it already. The French cling to speaking French because somewhere deep in the French psyche they've never quite come to terms with the fact that the days when French was the accepted top of the rung 'international' language are long gone.
etc. - for the two or three trips per annum each of us may do into each region. As for the post above saying a common language is only needed when it's necessary (???): who's to dictate when it becomes necessary?
I'd like to suggest that when we're all scooting about the sky between 150 and 450 knots, even if the use of the second language doesn't cause confusion and reduce SA (which few I think would argue it doesn't [but I see above that there are some]), it causes unnecessary delay. (How many people have waited, waited, waited for the French language version of the CDG ATIS to do its loop before listening to the English language version - when they could be doing something far more productive in an often very busy environment?)
It's even more counterproductive when you hear ATC and another aircraft conducting a (sometimes long) conversation in French that may (how are you to know?) have some bearing on what you should - or should not -be doing.
Someone's said it already. The French cling to speaking French because somewhere deep in the French psyche they've never quite come to terms with the fact that the days when French was the accepted top of the rung 'international' language are long gone.
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While I agree with most of your post, I should add that there is no wait for an English-language CDG ATIS after the French one, since they're on two different frequencies; 127.125 and 128.225 respectively - and have been for years.
But I suppose in an oblique way, it proves the point about English being the lingua franca of international commercial aviation...
Cheers
But I suppose in an oblique way, it proves the point about English being the lingua franca of international commercial aviation...
Cheers
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Really fascinating how this thread is drifting. The topic is a letter from Flight Ops management to pilots.
You guys drifted on the worn out topic of english / RT. May I rremind you that despite their sometimes appalling accent and pigheaded determination to be.................well.............french, the french have never lost an aircraft due to their sometimes shaky command of english.
What is at stake here is the fact a letter of warning meant " for your eyes only " was leaked out to the media causing a rather damaging wave for the compagny and in my view, putting AF pilots under a lot of pressure now it's been made public.
Imagine the commotion if the slightest incident occurs now.
You guys drifted on the worn out topic of english / RT. May I rremind you that despite their sometimes appalling accent and pigheaded determination to be.................well.............french, the french have never lost an aircraft due to their sometimes shaky command of english.
What is at stake here is the fact a letter of warning meant " for your eyes only " was leaked out to the media causing a rather damaging wave for the compagny and in my view, putting AF pilots under a lot of pressure now it's been made public.
Imagine the commotion if the slightest incident occurs now.