NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots

[DownIn3Green]

reference the guy "Mike" whose blog appears in Airbubba's post:

Mike seems to indicate that he is a card carrying member of the NWA pilot group, yet he doesn't seem to know what an A.O.M. is....

Just one more thing that makes you go "hmmmmm..."

P.S. I realize Airbubba is just quoting someone else, not stating any opinion on this blog...

[visibility3miles]

Perhaps have a mixed crew from both NW and Delta, and some IT "new crew-schedule" programmer to explain/debug it on the flight deck?

The transcript I read said fuel was not a problem as they had two hours worth. Did any pax miss a connecting flight, and did compensating for that cost the airline any additional money for alternative flights , hotels or a drop in customer satisfaction?

How can having your head buried in your laptop oblivious to ATC calls be "okay"? Internet addiction?

Use an obnoxious pop-up alert hooked tp ATC or GPS saying,
"YOU WON, you are approaching your destination!!!"

They may have noticed being buzzed by a jet fighter, but would have missed warnings about a plane straying off altitude.

The plane that went down in the Amazon had no warning another plane was approaching head on until they clipped its wing.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/2...er-brasil.html

I am not a professional pilot, but the police around here are cracking down on texting while driving, especially amongst teens.

If children could visit the cockpit, it might reduce boredom. Since that won't fly, perhaps an audio link for children in the cabin to ask the pilots a few questions about flying. It might encourage more youngsters to become pilots, and remind pilots that people care about what they do.

[Airbubba]

Mike seems to indicate that he is a card carrying member of the NWA pilot group, yet he doesn't seem to know what an A.O.M. is....

And wouldn't it be the FOM, not the AOM that would normally have things like policy about using notebook computers in flight? I realize that these manuals have different names at different carriers.

Maybe Mike came from the green book side. A lot of them boys are better at flying than reading from what I've seen.

[protectthehornet]

did the flight acknowledge the handoff with an "OK"? if so, that started the problem

read back the freq, write it down on a piece of paper and dial it in to the com head if multiple freqs can be stored...switch and get an acknowledgement OR GO B ACK to the other freq

[captjns]

In the view of the FAA, the crew in question violated many FARs up to and including potential reckless and endangerment. In the view of Delta Airlines, the crew violated certain policies and procedures as contained in their operations’ manual. In the view of the public these two are irresponsible buffoons.

Now it will be up to Cheney and Cole to defend the charges brought by the FAA, and Delta Airlines. It’s their onus to justify their actions and behavior which lead to incident.

[Springer1]

p51guy you are exactly right.

NWA does call it a FOM, not sure what Delta calls it. Many changes occuring in the transition to Delta, some in the operational area are not an improvement. NWA has a long innovative history and one of the first to adopt SOPA (standard operating procedures amplified). Little room to deviate.

[IGh]

investigation, web rumors, web corrections

In slot #618 AB cites a link that included the Captain's characterization of the NORDO event aboard an NWA A320 on 21Oct09:

“… the f/a brings the meal up, he will step back to use the restroom … returned, the F/A left the cockpit and he began to eat his crew meal…. f/o had received a frequency change … not the correct frequency … f/a's called the cockpit on the interphone … no one was fighting … pilots filed an NASAP Report … company tried to contact them on ACARS, but the 320 does not have a chime … about laptops … NWA's … operation manual … does not say we can't use a laptop … Delta's … does ….”
http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/11/what-happened-on-northwest-air.html

This may be one example where the "web" provides appropriate corrections to errs and omissions in Preliminary Reports offered by both the "regulator" and the authorized investigating authority (FAA and NTSB).

The excerpt above includes several Cockpit Housekeeping "red flags" noted in previous major accidents.
http://www.pprune.org/safety-crm-qa-...sekeeping.html

Note the fact that NWA's Operations Manual NEVER included any prohibition against "laptop" in cockpit. Note the often repeated post-mishap rumor about a "fight in the cockpit" [this old rumor keeps appearing in post-mishap Pilot-Gossip]. The ASAP report mentioned above alludes to weaknesses in the current ASAP EVENT REVIEW process (no review by outsiders so company's own weaknesses remain uncorrected, ERC errs go unidentified, any good ERC analysis goes unrecognized by the NTSB, and FAA-errs go unrecognized).

The new role of the "web" in affecting (mis-directing) Aircraft Accident Investigation first appeared in July'96, when an email message from an ex- UAL pilot posed a "missile scenario" -- before any evidence had been pulled off the ocean floor. That rumor, from the usual Retired Pilot Gossips was almost unstoppable. Now, perhaps the "web" can correct a few investigative mistakes from the FAA and the NTSB.

[DownIn3Green]

Laptops for pilots???...Cell phones not for the Pax???...What's up with that???

[IGh]

FAR-induced missed-COMM

When does the FAA's required “safety” feature become the pilot's distraction?

Several interesting complications appear after re-reading the latest "web" update on the NWA Nordo event of 21Oct09, cited in Slot #618:

“… the f/a brings the meal up, [Capt] step back to use the restroom … returned, the F/A left the cockpit and he began to eat his crew meal…. f/o had received a frequency change … not the correct frequency … [Captain] always has 121.5 tuned … noisy at times … forget to turn it back on….. [merger] new bidding system … [captain’s] lap top out … on his left leg …2 minutes … f/o … laptop out maximum of 5 minutes….. f/a's called the cockpit on the interphone … no one was fighting … nav [ND] screens … set on the max 320[NM] setting … the f/o called … frequency … Winnipeg Center … saw Eau Claire and Duluth on [ND] … f/o told them over Eau Claire … not even close … MSP had disappeared from the screen ... though ... over the city … filed an NASAP Report … company tried to contact them on ACARS, but the 320 does not have a chime … about laptops … NWA's … operation manual … does not say we can't use a laptop … Delta's … does ….”]

Especially focusing on the element of Pilot-out-of-Cockpit (red-flag), several competing FAR-obligations seem to DISTRACT the lone pilot-flying.
?When does the FAA's required “safety” feature become the pilot's distraction?

Cockpit HOUSEKEEPING ambiguities during NWA's CRZ Nordo:

-- ND set to 320NM range??? (Maybe this should be a "red-flag"?)

-- Second VHF-comm set to 121.5??? How far do we extrapolate this "guard" watch? With one Pilot-out-of-Cockpit? Even during low-altitude / high-workload terminal ops. (Should a pilot listen on TWO receivers during “sterile” low altitude ops??? When does the “safety” feature become the distraction?

-- Crz, pilot-out-of-cockpit, FAR 121.333,c,(3)-req’d high altitude O2Mask-induced COMM-errs (lone pilot’s headset-removed while O2Mask is donned, but his Mic selector must be reset with the Mask-Boom toggle), freq-change, freq-check-in on other Mic? Audio Select Panel must again be reset back to “Boom” rather than “Mask”, when pilot removes the O2Mask after other pilot re-enters cockpit. Reset overhead Speaker? When does the FAA's required “safety” feature become the pilot's distraction?

FAR 121.333,c,(3) =

“Notwithstanding paragraph (c)(2) of this section, if for any reason at any time it is necessary for one pilot to leave his station at the controls of the airplane when operating at flight altitudes above flight level 250, the remaining pilot at the controls shall put on and use his oxygen mask until the other pilot has returned to his duty station.”

[AirRabbit]

Originally Posted by IGh

(all the above)

[repariit]

"

Code:

They looked at their nav screens and were directly over MSP.
 Because they had their screens set on the max, 320 kt setting, when the
 f/o called on the frequency, which of course was Winnipeg Center, he 
saw Eau Claire and Duluth on his screen. They asked where they were and 
the f/o told them over Eau Claire, which was not even close, but MSP had 
disappeared from the screen even though they were right over the city.

"

Isn't there a fact gap in this? Does the radar track not show them more than 100 miles past MSP when the call was made asking to turn around?

[threemiles]

What a crazy discussion.

What about someone totally losing situational awareness, doesn't take care of wind, not recording waypoint overflights, not checking fuel to destination and then: MISSING Top Of Descent of your very own FMS and flying beyond the last waypoint on heading or what, overhearing the chime.

Don't make the public believe that you cannot fly without ATC, there are lost comm procedures that are supposed to be followed. You simply don't let your plane fly on heading to somewhere.

No, there is something definitely wrong here, not just dialling in a wrong frequency, by the way without a word of acknowledgement when leaving the old one...

That ATC didn't remember which frequency it sent the aircraft to and on which it was last heard is another scandal. And no clue about lost comm procedures...

[Airbubba]

From the Wall Street Journal:

Errant Pilots at Odds Over Blame

DECEMBER 7, 2009

Co-Pilot Faults the Pilot for Overfly Slipup; Both Seek to Get Licenses Restored

By ANDY PASZTOR

The Northwest Airlines captain and co-pilot who prompted a national outcry in October by going radio silent for more than an hour are now at odds with each other over who was primarily responsible for the blunder.

As the veteran aviators wage separate legal battles to regain licenses revoked by the government, the co-pilot is blaming the captain for failing to notice and resolve the communication slipup.

As part of his formal appeal to the Federal Aviation Administration to continue flying, co-pilot Richard I. Cole, 54 years old, argues that he deserves a lesser punishment partly because he "reasonably relied on the performance" of the captain, who was actually flying the plane, "in meeting his required duties and responsibilities."

Capt. Timothy B. Cheney, 53, makes no specific assertions about the co-pilot's responsibility in his appeal.

The filings, submitted to the National Transportation Safety Board last month but not previously reported, make the claim that various "extenuating circumstances" -- from air-traffic controller lapses to the design of aircraft systems to voluntary cooperation with investigators -- warrant more lenient treatment of the pilots by the FAA. Neither filing includes new detail about what transpired in the cockpit...

Allvoices.com - External Link


This 'you don't have to outrun the bear, only your partner' defense is somewhat surprising to me.

[SaturnV]

Also blaming the air traffic controllers:

(AP)....WASHINGTON – The Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot Minneapolis have blamed air traffic controllers in part for the incident, saying controllers violated procedures.

Capt. Timothy Cheney, 54, of Gig Harbor, Wash., and First Officer Richard Cole, 54, of Salem, Ore., said in documents filed Nov. 24 with the National Transportation Safety Board that controllers didn't follow rules and practices contained in the Federal Aviation Administration's air traffic control manual and didn't coordinate effectively with Northwest dispatchers. The documents don't offer any details on those violations.

[patrickal]

Capt. Timothy Cheney, 54, of Gig Harbor, Wash., and First Officer Richard Cole, 54, of Salem, Ore., said in documents filed Nov. 24 with the National Transportation Safety Board that controllers didn't follow rules and practices contained in the Federal Aviation Administration's air traffic control manual and didn't coordinate effectively with Northwest dispatchers.

They also didn't contact the Air Force or Air National Guard and have them shot down, so perhaps these are"offsetting penalties"??

[Machaca]

Key item in below report:

...there were several shift changes during that time in which controllers going off duty who had handled the plane didn't inform controllers coming on duty that the plane was out of radio contact.

AP reports:

Northwest pilots blame air traffic controllers
By Joan Lowy

WASHINGTON – The Northwest Airlines pilots who overshot Minneapolis have blamed air traffic controllers in part for the incident, saying controllers violated procedures.

Capt. Timothy Cheney, 54, of Gig Harbor, Wash., and First Officer Richard Cole, 54, of Salem, Ore., said in documents filed Nov. 24 with the National Transportation Safety Board that controllers didn't follow rules and practices contained in the Federal Aviation Administration's air traffic control manual and didn't coordinate effectively with Northwest dispatchers. The documents don't offer any details on those violations.

Cheney and Cole are appealing the Federal Aviation Administration's revocation of their pilots' licenses. The pair were out of radio contact for 77 minutes on Oct. 21 as their plane carrying 144 passengers flew more than 100 miles past Minneapolis. The Airbus A320 was over Wisconsin before controllers were able to re-establish contact.

The pilots later told authorities they had been working on crew scheduling on their laptops and didn't realize they had missed their destination until a flight attendant using an intercom asked when the flight would be landing.

Cole also said in his filing that he shouldn't be punished or his punishment should be mitigated because he relied on Cheney as the pilot in command of the aircraft to fulfill his responsibilities.

Both pilots had extensive flying experience and told investigators they had had no previous incidents or violations. Cheney was hired by Northwest in 1985 and had about 20,000 hours of flying time, about half of it in the A320. Cole had about 11,000 hours of flight time, including 5,000 hours in the A320.

FAA revoked their licenses six days after the incident. The agency said the pilots violated numerous federal safety regulations, including failing to comply with air traffic control instructions and clearances and operating carelessly and recklessly.

Doug Church, a spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, declined to comment, citing the union's status as a party to the NTSB's investigation of the incident.

FAA officials have said controllers repeatedly tried unsuccessfully to contact Northwest Flight 188 as it flew from San Diego across a broad swath of the continent. They've also said there were several shift changes during that time in which controllers going off duty who had handled the plane didn't inform controllers coming on duty that the plane was out of radio contact.

The pilots' appeals will be heard by an NTSB administrative law judge. No date has been set, but both pilots have asked for at least 90 days to gather information.

Immediately following the incident, Cheney and Cole were suspended by Delta Air Lines, which acquired Northwest in 2008. Delta spokesman Anthony Black said Monday the airline is cooperating with NTSB investigators as well as conducting its own investigation.

[captjns]

Capt. Timothy Cheney, 54, of Gig Harbor, Wash., and First Officer Richard Cole, 54, of Salem, Ore., said in documents filed Nov. 24 with the National Transportation Safety Board that controllers didn't follow rules and practices contained in the Federal Aviation Administration's air traffic control manual and didn't coordinate effectively with Northwest dispatchers. The documents don't offer any details on those violations.

OOOOKAAAAYYYYY Can someone remind me who had the keys to the jet????

To be fair here... at least the skipper didn't blame his dog for chewing up the PLOG which could have been a reasonable cause for overflying MSP

Or better yet... Cheney could have beat his chest and proclaimed he saved they day when the cabin crew help him pull his head out of his ARSE when asked "When are we landing?

Come on... what do you say... let's help Cheney keep his job and his license by adding more excuses toward his defense.

[One Outsider]

Originally Posted by captjns

Can someone remind me who had the keys to the jet????

I've notice that when it comes to apportioning blame you are quite keen to get in there early.

[captjns]

I've notice that when it comes to apportioning blame you are quite keen to get in there early.

And your point One Outsider? All I asked was who had the key to the jet?

I along with the majority of my colleagues come from the old school of aviation... the company give us the keys to the jet, and thus our responsibility.


By my citations are merely observations based on information, facts and statements by all parties.

I think we can agree that all of the aircraft systems as it relates to communications and navigation were fully functional and operational.

Now if you are of the opinion as to the crew acting in accordance with their SOPs, please share. By the way One Outsider, do you have a set of Delta Operations Manuals? If so, can you please cite the section where it is company procedure to be out of radio contact for more than 80 minutes??? overfly one's clearance limits??? not have a clue as to where one is??? or it's ATCs responsibility to remind the crew to stay in radio contact or maintain situational awareness? Help me out here.

[snaproll3480]

So it was multiple human factors having to do with ATC, handoffs, cockpit communications, etc....See my post #52.