NTSB investigating possible nodding off of Northwest pilots

[Perwazee]

Have I missed something earlier?
Is the airline I'm I working for the only one that requires cabin crew to check with the flight deck every 20 minutes on intercom?

Definitely not at my airline, but it's a GOOD idea!

[moist]

Definitely not at my airline, but it's a GOOD idea!

Maybe not yet, but now I can see them all having to do it pretty soonish!
Only the invincible ones won't bring this SOP in. The ones I wouldn't want to pax with!!!

[Nemrytter]

Apologies if off-topic, but it seems that there was something vaguely similar (no contact) in Europe today.

Links in Danish:
Københavnerfly udløste stor-alarm - Politiken.dk

Basic jist is:
TAP A320 flying Lisbon-Copenhagen flew for approximately 30 minutes whilst unresponsive to/not in contact with the ground. It covered around 400km in this time and was met by a couple of German F4's. They're investigating a possible technical failure, but the crew was apparently not in contact with the cabin during this period either (although of course it's possible that they chose not to inform the pax of what the problem was).

[ScarletHarlot]

From Nation & World | Off course, out of touch: What were Northwest Airlines Flight 188 pilots doing? | Seattle Times Newspaper

"I can assure you none of us was asleep," Cole told ABC News on Friday night. He declined to comment further but added, "I am not doing very good."

Cole elaborated in an interview Friday night with The Associated Press: "All I'm saying is we were not asleep; we were not having a fight; there was nothing serious going on in the cockpit that would threaten the people in the back at all."

He declined to discuss what exactly happened but did insist "it was not a serious event, from a safety issue."

"I can't go into it, but it was innocuous."

Not asleep, no fight...were they having sex?!?

[windytoo]

I work for a major English airline, and our SOPs call for the cabin crew to make contact or come in to the "office" every 15/20 minutes. Not only is it good for CRM but it also keeps one on one's toes. All my friends who fly for the bigger Uk airlines have a similar policy. I guess it hasn't caught on with our junior colleagues on the other side of the pond yet. Maybe when we are as good as our American friends we can try to do it on our own as well.

[BreezyDC]

I was jumpseating an Australasian carrier over the Indian Ocean, and the flight crew were writing down and crosschecking waypoints and freqs on a legal pad. They noted it was both to stay focused as well as make sure the right data was in the computer. Yeah, you can still doze between checks, but beats just reading.

[BenThere]

the other guys are MURCAINS

Slim Shady

We have a non-white president, elected freely and fairly by all the people. Get over it.

Sorry, folks, just trying to confuse a troll.

Seriously, I think every 20 minutes is a bit much. What are the odds, over a 5 hour flight, that the call would cause you to miss a radio call, or interrupt some other operation. On the A320, the call signal is quite intrusive, and even without required check-ins, we get two or three calls from the cabin per flight on average.

This particular story is in the news today, and it has received a lot of attention. But how many times has this happened over millions of flights each year? I think some perspective is called for. Let's learn from it, sure.

And there is a big difference between calling for the facts to come out before rendering judgment, and knee-jerk defense of the pilots.

[moist]

I was jumpseating an Australasian carrier over the Indian Ocean, and the flight crew were writing down and crosschecking waypoints and freqs on a legal pad. They noted it was both to stay focused as well as make sure the right data was in the computer. Yeah, you can still doze between checks, but beats just reading

That's amzing. Jumpseating. You know, I can be the captain one day, then on the following day I am not even allowed to jumpseat in the same cockpit I flew the day before!
The world is mad.

Airbridges in the UK have locks and numbers and card type access. Two hours later in Spain, all bridges are unlocked, come and go as you wish.

Thread creep, I know!

[AnthonyGA]

With increasing numbers of pilots apparently dozing off, and a near-total absence of terrorism on board, I have to wonder if the extreme measures separating the flight deck from the rest of the aircraft are really a good idea. I thought the circumstances of the Helios Airways flight were very exceptional, but it's starting to look as though similar situations may be close to cropping up fairly frequently.

[gravity enemy]

near-total absence of terrorism on board, I have to wonder if the extreme measures separating the flight deck from the rest of the aircraft are really a good idea.

Respectfully I have to disagree. Perhaps in-flight terrorism is as low as it is because of such strong measures. If you weaken the cockpits security, this might be taken as an open invitation to terrorists and more plots might be thought up. Especially since the solution is so simple. As the Europeans have mentioned, cabin crew SOP's should be in place to call the flight deck at 15-20min intervals. Also there should be more systems to warn the crew if no interaction has taken place in a certain period of time.

[V2-OMG!]

I have to wonder what exactly motivates the media to cover one story but not another?

The story which is less likely to cause us to doze off?

[Machaca]

Sleep or Freq?

Consider the news reports:

They had flown through the night with no response as air traffic controllers in two states and pilots of other planes over a wide swath of the mid-continent tried to get their attention by radio, data message and cell phone.

Not only couldn't air traffic controllers and other pilots raise the Northwest pilots for an hour, but the airline's dispatcher should have been trying to reach them as well.

Air traffic controllers in Denver had been in contact with the pilots as they flew over the Rockies, FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said. But as the plane got closer to Minneapolis, she said, "The Denver center tried to contact the flight but couldn't get anyone."

Denver controllers notified their counterparts in Minneapolis, who also tried to reach the crew without success, Brown said.

Officials suspect Flight 188's radio might still have been tuned to a frequency used by Denver controllers even though the plane had flown beyond their reach, said

Church, the spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Union. Controllers worked throughout the incident with the pilots of other planes, asking them to try to raise Flight 188 using the Denver frequency, he said.

Two pilots flying in the vicinity were also finally able to raise the Northwest pilots using a Denver traffic control radio frequency instead of the local Minneapolis frequency.

Review snaproll3480's experience:

While on a flight from Canada to NY (intentional vagueness), ATC had inadvertantly miscommunicated our flight number from one center to another. Now this wasn't simply a dislexic transcription but an entirely different call sign with an admittedly similar but not easily recognizable flight number. Our phantom callsign was given a frequency change without response and we continued on our way. It was not until I knew it was time to descend that I queried why we had not been given the expected descent. ATC responded by asking who we were and our position. I told them our callsign again and our position and was told to contact another frequency which I recognized as the next one in sequence. After contacting them they also aked who we were and our callsign. After some figuring, they realized that they had the incorrect callsign and had been trying to contact us for some time.

Throughout this episode we never received a selcal, acars message, or any other form of alert as to the mistake because they were probably trying to alert the wrong airline about a lost airplane that didn't exist.

Do you vote sleep or frequency?

[DC-ATE]

Hey.....Perwazee.....

What I find incredulous is when some of the morons on this board say “...While this COULD have been an accident of major proportions, it was NOT. There is no Earthly reason to release the CVR to the news media where it will get completely misconstrued.”
That’s the mentality we have: if it didn’t turn in to a catastrophe, then let’s not do much about it.

I did NOT say DON'T do anything about it. I merely said the tapes should not be released to the public. That is not their purpose.

[llondel]

As for the CVR, why is it that we live in a world where a five year old can Google his way through the moons surface, yet CVR's only record a few hours max? In this day and age this is simply inexcusable! In some instances more than two hours are required in order to find the beginning of the error chain.

This is simple, it's down to $$$. Certainly older aircraft are likely to have older, more limited CVRs fitted, and unless one fails, there's no incentive to pay money to fit a newer, better one unless the rules change that mandate it. I don't know the cost difference between a 30-min and a 2hr CVR, or if it's just that newer technology means that they upgraded them because it was easier. It's a bit like hard disks, you can't get smaller ones any more because people don't make them, same with flash memory used in CVRs. At some point the smaller stuff gets more expensive because less are being made. There was talk after the AF accident over the Atlantic that having a decent satellite uplink to transmit such data would be good, but again, it's $$$ for something that hopefully would rarely be needed.

I wonder at what point they pulled the CB on the CVR as well, delaying that until shutdown at the gate has erased important information in the past, not through any deliberate act, just because it's not exactly a priority item if you're trying to get a damaged aircraft safely down.

[Wonderkid]

Re sex, was thinking the same thing...

...be interesting to find out if one of the pilots (no doubt the less superior) was younger and somewhat good looking and hit upon by his superior. A world first: Mile high homoerotic behavior by a flight crew! If this really is the explanation, the humiliation will be unbearable! The passengers will probably find it all a little amusing being it all turned out nicely from a safety standpoint. Stiff punishment for the guys though... Tut tut! (Cue all manner of jokes and puns blending such behavior with the profession!)

[protectthehornet]

anti terror security

we have a big fricking bar on the door...one pilot has to leave his seat to get up and open the door to let in a f/a.

so...instead of this...why not just asign one FA to the flight deck for the whole flight? She should be really good looking and smell nice. Her job is to make sure the boys look at the instruments and make good landings.

She can give out snacks along the way for good performance.

The pilots can bark once in awhile.


Seriously. I've resorted (with the other pilot) to singing the FLINTSTONES theme song to keep alert. And my airline is famous for short haul. Heck, I've sung the whole ABC network early 1960's lineup on the shuttle from KBOS to KLGA.

And I've also flown from KLGA to KBOS in 24 minutes...how would that 20 minute rule work in that situation?

And knock off the idea of homosexual sex in the cockpit. I take it at face value...the guys started talking about something and it was a heck of a conversation. and as I mentioned in another thread, if it is hard to hear in the cockpit or hearing problems (and we have all lost hearing), you turn towards the other pilot to sort of read lips as well as hear...and then you don't look at the instrument panel. understand, comprende, ?????

and everyone out there has screwed up or will screw up...so be careful.

[gravity enemy]

There was talk after the AF accident over the Atlantic that having a decent satellite uplink to transmit such data would be good, but again, it's $$$ for something that hopefully would rarely be needed.

A deep sea diving mission to find CVR's is also an expensive mission. Surely a decent remote data capture system can't be that expensive! And it has so many advantages. No more CVR manufacture, which is also expensive. Less weight etc...

[bratschewurst]

They should have their certs lifted - today - and never fly professionally again.

On the other hand, they're probably the least likely pilots on the planet to do such a dumb thing ever again if they do keep their jobs.

[captjns]

Well... before they even think about keeping their jobs, the have to need to have justify before the FAA why they are safe and dedicated airmen and why they should not have their tickets lifted.

If and only if the FAA says OK... then they are also going to have to do the same song and dance routine before the powers that bee at Delta.

If they are violated, and lose their jobs, then off to Wal Mart.

If the FAA allows them to keep their tickets, and are fired by Delta, then their records will be duly notated for reason for dismissal, and made available to future prospective employers under Pilot Record Information Act.

ALPA is going to have to pull a rabbit out of their hat in order to successfully defend these two chaps.

[Ballymoss]

This diatribe is making me tired..........tired enough to fall asleep

Rgds
The Moss