Your slot's cancelled!
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Your slot's cancelled!
Last night at PMI - slot delay of 1:30 minutes.
"It's a Barcelona/Bordeaux restriction - we can not re-route you so we're stuck with it" say OPS.
SUDDENLY the mobile rings, OPS; "It's ok your slot's cancelled. come on home".
Can someone understand this - the biggest stupidity in aviation. How does a slot delay of this magnitude disappear suddenly? What MORON is in charge at Brussels? Do they realise what these things mean at the aircraft end of the business???
Does any of you ever wonder what's behind all this? Who's gaining from this madness?
I am soooooooo tired of it all!
"It's a Barcelona/Bordeaux restriction - we can not re-route you so we're stuck with it" say OPS.
SUDDENLY the mobile rings, OPS; "It's ok your slot's cancelled. come on home".
Can someone understand this - the biggest stupidity in aviation. How does a slot delay of this magnitude disappear suddenly? What MORON is in charge at Brussels? Do they realise what these things mean at the aircraft end of the business???
Does any of you ever wonder what's behind all this? Who's gaining from this madness?
I am soooooooo tired of it all!
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Twistedfirefighter
It is a strange system at Brussels sometimes. You can have a big delay that suddenly becomes minimal. I don't know what the reason for the French restrictions last night. However, from previous experience, at night the Bordeaux restrictions are quite often caused by sectors being collapsed usually due to staffing problems. What this does is double the work of a controller as he/she has twice as much of an area to look after. This subsequently reduces capacity and gives you your large slot delay. If they manage to get extra staff to come in then they can revert to normal and this would explain why a big delay becomes slot cancelled. A ready message does a similar thing as this looks for missed slots and "gaps" in capacity that you could take, giving you an earlier slot time.
Hope this explains things a little.
ES
It is a strange system at Brussels sometimes. You can have a big delay that suddenly becomes minimal. I don't know what the reason for the French restrictions last night. However, from previous experience, at night the Bordeaux restrictions are quite often caused by sectors being collapsed usually due to staffing problems. What this does is double the work of a controller as he/she has twice as much of an area to look after. This subsequently reduces capacity and gives you your large slot delay. If they manage to get extra staff to come in then they can revert to normal and this would explain why a big delay becomes slot cancelled. A ready message does a similar thing as this looks for missed slots and "gaps" in capacity that you could take, giving you an earlier slot time.
Hope this explains things a little.
ES
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Twistedfirefighter I couldn't agree more. The whole European slot system is unbelievable.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but, you call for push & start at the appropriate time for your slot, and you are given clearance to do so, then whilst taxying there is some airfield delay - let's say a broken down vehicle in the way for example - which delays you beyond your slot expiry time, you may still continue because you would have been ready on time had the airfield delay not happened!!!!!!
What was the point of the slot in the first place then?
This certainly was the case a couple of years ago when I visited Eurocontrol. If it has changed can someone please let me know.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but, you call for push & start at the appropriate time for your slot, and you are given clearance to do so, then whilst taxying there is some airfield delay - let's say a broken down vehicle in the way for example - which delays you beyond your slot expiry time, you may still continue because you would have been ready on time had the airfield delay not happened!!!!!!
What was the point of the slot in the first place then?
This certainly was the case a couple of years ago when I visited Eurocontrol. If it has changed can someone please let me know.
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And another thing. I was there last night too. The quality of the Spanish controllers is declining. Every time someone called ground for a clearance they were asked to say again their callsign. They don't even understand our callsigns anymore, even though it must be written down in front of them. The whole place is run by monkeys.
Sorry didn't mean to detour from the subject, but just HAD TO!
Sorry didn't mean to detour from the subject, but just HAD TO!
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Twisted - The Brussels operation is the administration for the participating countries which impose the flow control in the first place. If your slot is cancelled then either the regulation has reached the end of its required period or has been withdrawn. Your company Ops department should be fully aware of exactly what sector in which Area Centre was delaying you. If their action was unreasonable get the company to ask for a reason.
If you don't challenge you won't get answers. We have to answer questions every day in the UK - don't see why others shouldn't as well after all they are public servants.
If you don't challenge you won't get answers. We have to answer questions every day in the UK - don't see why others shouldn't as well after all they are public servants.
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Actually the whole show is run by the Central Flow Management Unit (CFMU) of EuroControl in Brussels.
Reading between the lines they use some sodding great mainframe computer to manage the ATC 'flow', i.e. because if you want to connect to it you have to use an SNA compliant connection - where SNA = mainframe type networking.
Now in one of my other guises (i.e. I've got two hats) I'm presently involved in connecting my airlines Ops Department to EuroControl's Slot Management computer - and you would not believe what a nause it is to get the network hardware to function (or perhaps you might).
That said, EuroControl will soon be making available (about a month, or so) connection via TCP/IP (the internet protocol - which you're using right now to access this site).
According to the CFMU literature it initially should be able to handle the viewing & requesting of slots, but it won't be until next year (apparently) that you will be able to ask "if I re-route, can I get a better slot ?" type questions - via this TCP/IP browser based connection.
Of course with browser based TCP/IP connectivity you could use a laptop on the flight deck to connect to the web via a mobile phone, or better still a wireless LAN, login to CFMU with your corporate account, and then manage the slot / routing yourself - to say nothing of having a quick surf of PPRuNe too !
Reading between the lines they use some sodding great mainframe computer to manage the ATC 'flow', i.e. because if you want to connect to it you have to use an SNA compliant connection - where SNA = mainframe type networking.
Now in one of my other guises (i.e. I've got two hats) I'm presently involved in connecting my airlines Ops Department to EuroControl's Slot Management computer - and you would not believe what a nause it is to get the network hardware to function (or perhaps you might).
That said, EuroControl will soon be making available (about a month, or so) connection via TCP/IP (the internet protocol - which you're using right now to access this site).
According to the CFMU literature it initially should be able to handle the viewing & requesting of slots, but it won't be until next year (apparently) that you will be able to ask "if I re-route, can I get a better slot ?" type questions - via this TCP/IP browser based connection.
Of course with browser based TCP/IP connectivity you could use a laptop on the flight deck to connect to the web via a mobile phone, or better still a wireless LAN, login to CFMU with your corporate account, and then manage the slot / routing yourself - to say nothing of having a quick surf of PPRuNe too !
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Devil. The actual flow control is imposed by each ACC, If they decide at no notice to cancel beacuse they have not been monitoring demand then they are the ones to blame for the sudden change.
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2 six 4, are you saying that CFMU have no control over airways load and mearly broker airway space on behalf of the individual ACC's ?
It's just that that seems to be at odds with what seemingly happens when you apply to CFMU for a new slot, and / or put in a 'ready message' ?
Just curious..............
It's just that that seems to be at odds with what seemingly happens when you apply to CFMU for a new slot, and / or put in a 'ready message' ?
Just curious..............
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Devils Advocate
That's exactly what 2 Six 4 is saying and he/she's right.
The individual ACCs advise the CFMU of their sector capacities, firstly on a strategic basis (i.e Ops Normal) and secondly whenever conditions require a different capacity to exist. It is these figures which are fed into the Wurlizter and are used to calculate globaly whether you are restricted or not.
If you are given a slot, it will always be possible for your company (and the CFMU) to find out which sector is causing the most penalising delay on your route. If that sector then changes cirumstances and ups it's acceptance rate, then your details can be fed back in and the whole process started again. However, it doesn't mean because your most penalising restriction has been removed that you now get a clear run at things. That's because all the less penalising delays which were 'hiding' behind the biggest one now come into play. They are still there and have to be taken into account.
The CFMU have no say over the capacity an ACC sets and no influence on the guys at the coal face. As they have only a sparse knowledge of the airspace and no knowledge of the ATC procedures and staff levels and capabilities at the ACCs, there is no way that they could.
I am not sure if any non UK ACCs make use of it, but in the UK we do have constantly updated information from the CFMU on the pain that the UK is causing (using the CASA Delay Monitor). This will flag up aircraft in the system where 15 minutes or more delay is being imposed with the most penalising delay being due to a UK sector. This gives us a trigger to take a look at individual flights to see if we can do anything for them. For example, we may suggest to the operator that he refiles below the restricted sector, or if it's UK interenal flight, we may speak to the adjacent UK ACC to see if it can take an extra flight over and above the regulated capacity. Of course this is not quite so straightforward if the flight is going beyond UK airspace since although we remove the UK penalty, the CFMU then has to recalculate all the other restrictions through which the flight will have to pass. Your 1 hour delay in the UK might still turn out to be 58 minutes if that's what Paris are regulating. It's just that the Paris restriction was 'hidden' behind the UK one before !!
That's exactly what 2 Six 4 is saying and he/she's right.
The individual ACCs advise the CFMU of their sector capacities, firstly on a strategic basis (i.e Ops Normal) and secondly whenever conditions require a different capacity to exist. It is these figures which are fed into the Wurlizter and are used to calculate globaly whether you are restricted or not.
If you are given a slot, it will always be possible for your company (and the CFMU) to find out which sector is causing the most penalising delay on your route. If that sector then changes cirumstances and ups it's acceptance rate, then your details can be fed back in and the whole process started again. However, it doesn't mean because your most penalising restriction has been removed that you now get a clear run at things. That's because all the less penalising delays which were 'hiding' behind the biggest one now come into play. They are still there and have to be taken into account.
The CFMU have no say over the capacity an ACC sets and no influence on the guys at the coal face. As they have only a sparse knowledge of the airspace and no knowledge of the ATC procedures and staff levels and capabilities at the ACCs, there is no way that they could.
I am not sure if any non UK ACCs make use of it, but in the UK we do have constantly updated information from the CFMU on the pain that the UK is causing (using the CASA Delay Monitor). This will flag up aircraft in the system where 15 minutes or more delay is being imposed with the most penalising delay being due to a UK sector. This gives us a trigger to take a look at individual flights to see if we can do anything for them. For example, we may suggest to the operator that he refiles below the restricted sector, or if it's UK interenal flight, we may speak to the adjacent UK ACC to see if it can take an extra flight over and above the regulated capacity. Of course this is not quite so straightforward if the flight is going beyond UK airspace since although we remove the UK penalty, the CFMU then has to recalculate all the other restrictions through which the flight will have to pass. Your 1 hour delay in the UK might still turn out to be 58 minutes if that's what Paris are regulating. It's just that the Paris restriction was 'hidden' behind the UK one before !!
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Thanks loads 10W - it was obvious, I suppose, but it's always nice to hear it straight from somebody at the coal face.
Almost hate to ask (but namesake requires it) but could you (or anybody) answer another question, i.e. when they have the annual 'slot' conference (usually at some swanky resort, somewhere nice and hot) what are they doing, and how do they do it ? Also, how does this then manifest itself into SSIM's ?
Curiouser and curiouser ......
Almost hate to ask (but namesake requires it) but could you (or anybody) answer another question, i.e. when they have the annual 'slot' conference (usually at some swanky resort, somewhere nice and hot) what are they doing, and how do they do it ? Also, how does this then manifest itself into SSIM's ?
Curiouser and curiouser ......
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Just to give you flying types a little insight ....today I had a slot revised BACKWARDS three times as an aircraft was ready to start .I phoned Brussels flow and told them I was IGNORING their slot ...."you can't" she said in a nice dutch/croatian/english what the hell accent..what do you suggest I said? taxiway is blocked !! why should I take it in the neck for you? your call .....result slot BROUGHT FORWARD ....aircraft had to speed up !!!WE are as PI$$ED OFF as you .....I feel like a total gob$hite for telling you your slot has changed .......but blame the guys at eurocontrol ...NOT the guy on the ground at PMI ....or ...BFS!!! THERE! outed myself!!!! 
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Mike !!
"They don't even understand our callsigns anymore, even though it must be written down in front of them. The whole place is run by monkeys.
Sorry didn't mean to detour from the subject, but just HAD TO!"
I was talking about slots not the deviation you embarked on so I reckon you are being unfair on me to pull me for something I did not comment on !
"They don't even understand our callsigns anymore, even though it must be written down in front of them. The whole place is run by monkeys.
Sorry didn't mean to detour from the subject, but just HAD TO!"
I was talking about slots not the deviation you embarked on so I reckon you are being unfair on me to pull me for something I did not comment on !
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What I cannot understand is why the big operators out there don't join up and demand that the CTOT computer be shut down.
This is not only a question of time and $.
More importantly it is a question of safety.
How many of my colleagues out there can honestly say that you have never hurried through your preflight checks in a way that you otherwise never would, just to be able meet that ##@@**** slot.
Yes, we shouldn't let it affect us, but we all know what the consequences of a missed slot-time can be ( eg. duty time exceedance followed by crew-rest at the out-station while the pass. spend 10 hrs in the terminal ) and you will be the one explaining it all over the PA tomorrow.
I'm going to stick my neck out and say what I think this is really about : A number of jobs in Brussels for those who nurse thier CTOT software like a little baby.
Pull the plug.
This is not only a question of time and $.
More importantly it is a question of safety.
How many of my colleagues out there can honestly say that you have never hurried through your preflight checks in a way that you otherwise never would, just to be able meet that ##@@**** slot.
Yes, we shouldn't let it affect us, but we all know what the consequences of a missed slot-time can be ( eg. duty time exceedance followed by crew-rest at the out-station while the pass. spend 10 hrs in the terminal ) and you will be the one explaining it all over the PA tomorrow.
I'm going to stick my neck out and say what I think this is really about : A number of jobs in Brussels for those who nurse thier CTOT software like a little baby.
Pull the plug.
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Yes but think of how many TCAS RAs we'd have as some maxed out controller tries to sort us all out with no means of reducing the flow rate. Do you really want to get airborne then find you have to spend 30 mins holding enroute because the next sector can't or won't accept you?
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Hand Solo
In the best of worlds all software is efficient, optimal, fast and without bugs.
I might be a pessimist, but my experience with software is somewhat different.
If we lived in the best of worlds I'd happily accept whatever CTOT imposed upon me, knowing that our precious airspace was utilized in the best way imaginable.
I have a feeling though that we're not there quite yet.
I get your piont ; but I'm not at all convinced that the chap/dame who is responsible for the CTOT software has any reason of beeing proud of it.
In the best of worlds all software is efficient, optimal, fast and without bugs.
I might be a pessimist, but my experience with software is somewhat different.
If we lived in the best of worlds I'd happily accept whatever CTOT imposed upon me, knowing that our precious airspace was utilized in the best way imaginable.
I have a feeling though that we're not there quite yet.
I get your piont ; but I'm not at all convinced that the chap/dame who is responsible for the CTOT software has any reason of beeing proud of it.
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MalteBlaxhead
The CFMU aren't the ones who set the flow rates, it's the ATC Centres. All they do is broker them on everyone's behalf. Think back to the bad old days where there was no central agency and each ACC had to speak to the next one who had to speak to the next one who had to speak to the next one who said, sorry, there's a delay. Meanwhile half an hour or more has elapsed and it's back to square one. At least with the software, warts and all, the answer is almost instantaneous.
If you think it's a waste of time having flow control then you need to go to one of the busy ACCs in Europe and sit in on a regulated sector where the ATC controller is hanging on by his finger nails. And then tell him that there's another 20 or so coming from now on since there are no slots any more !!
CFMU is not perfect but it is sure as hell better than aluminium showers over parts of Europe.
[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: 10W ]
The CFMU aren't the ones who set the flow rates, it's the ATC Centres. All they do is broker them on everyone's behalf. Think back to the bad old days where there was no central agency and each ACC had to speak to the next one who had to speak to the next one who had to speak to the next one who said, sorry, there's a delay. Meanwhile half an hour or more has elapsed and it's back to square one. At least with the software, warts and all, the answer is almost instantaneous.
If you think it's a waste of time having flow control then you need to go to one of the busy ACCs in Europe and sit in on a regulated sector where the ATC controller is hanging on by his finger nails. And then tell him that there's another 20 or so coming from now on since there are no slots any more !!
CFMU is not perfect but it is sure as hell better than aluminium showers over parts of Europe.
[ 04 September 2001: Message edited by: 10W ]